Are Women Who Get Raped "Asking For It By Dressing And Behaving Like Sluts"?
#25
I suppose the moral premise of rapists has no meaning as it could just be a ploy to escape from their punishment for a crime that they have committed. It becomes valid only when men who would never commit rape but justify other rapist men. It's a condition where a normal man is in the group of a rapist man.

In that case, I suppose those men subscribe to feudal ideals of sexual conquest and masculinity. At one end of the spectrum you have Casanovas and at the other end you have Rapists.
Manju Vadiarillat
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#26
Ajita, I understand the context of the usage of certain words but people who use this kind of terminology are the ones who stereotype women and maybe give moral justifications for rape. The sluttishness is in the minds of the rapists.
I agree with you that it is an issue that needs serious discussion and also clarification because the justifiers do not realise that they're aligning themselves with the crime committers.

Moving on to the subject, since we're discussing women being raped by men, we can keep out the categories of child sex abuse and same-sex rape. We have to include date-rape and marital rape (which is probably not legally an offense in India).

There should be zero tolerance for any kind of deviant behaviour from men towards women, ranging from sexual harassment to rape. This includes invading her space, inappropriate touching, etc.

Those who justify rape by wrongly blaming women for the way they dress or behave are 'transferring and imposing' their own moral values, life styles, codes of conduct on to the women. They should stop to re-examine their own values which while judging the victim, exonerate the offenders for what surely is a brutal crime, which traumatises the victim mentally and physically.

Socially-conditioned men and women do not recognise a woman's ''free will'' to form a consensual relationship.
A few years back, a young girl who was with her boyfriend in a park in New Delhi, was gang-raped by a group of men. In a television debate, I was appalled to hear some young men justifying the rape by saying that stuff like 'why did she go out to the park', 'she already has a boyfriend', etc.

A civilized society cannot condone rape. A sex worker has the right to say 'no' and 'stop' too.

The issue of the way women dress is a superflous matter. If the entire human population decide to declare Earth as a nudist colony, what then?
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#27
(07-Jul-2010, 07:20 PM)Swati Wrote: Ajita, I understand the context of the usage of certain words but people who use this kind of terminology are the ones who stereotype women and maybe give moral justifications for rape. The sluttishness is in the minds of the rapists.

That was exactly the point I was making. Maybe I didn't spell it out, but I thought putting the phrase "Asking For It By Dressing And Behaving Like Sluts" within quotation marks would make it clear that I was quoting the stereotypical misogynist Huh

Edit: Sorry for not being clear about why I used the word in the first place. It is an offensive word and I should have been clear that I was using it with the idea of criticizing its social connotations.

Quote:Those who justify rape by wrongly blaming women for the way they dress or behave are 'transferring and imposing' their own moral values, life styles, codes of conduct on to the women. They should stop to re-examine their own values which while judging the victim, exonerate the offenders for what surely is a brutal crime, which traumatises the victim mentally and physically.

Well said, Swati! Thumbup
"Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian"
~ J.B.S.Haldane, on being asked to falsify evolution.
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#28
An Andhra Pradesh investigator's opinion about rape in general. I suppose this matters;
Quote:"Remember that rape although a sexual assault is all about domination," a seasoned investigator reasoned.

Mel Gibson's opinion about scantily clad woman;
Quote:Last week, a recording posted by RadarOnline.com included comments it said came from Gibson telling Grigorieva that she was dressing too provocatively and that it would be her fault if she were raped.
Manju Vadiarillat
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#29
(10-Jul-2010, 08:08 AM)Ajita Kamal Wrote:
(07-Jul-2010, 07:20 PM)Swati Wrote: Ajita, I understand the context of the usage of certain words but people who use this kind of terminology are the ones who stereotype women and maybe give moral justifications for rape. The sluttishness is in the minds of the rapists.

That was exactly the point I was making. Maybe I didn't spell it out, but I thought putting the phrase "Asking For It By Dressing And Behaving Like Sluts" within quotation marks would make it clear that I was quoting the stereotypical misogynist Huh

Edit: Sorry for not being clear about why I used the word in the first place. It is an offensive word and I should have been clear that I was using it with the idea of criticizing its social connotations.

Quote:Those who justify rape by wrongly blaming women for the way they dress or behave are 'transferring and imposing' their own moral values, life styles, codes of conduct on to the women. They should stop to re-examine their own values which while judging the victim, exonerate the offenders for what surely is a brutal crime, which traumatises the victim mentally and physically.

Well said, Swati! Thumbup

Thank you, Ajita. I appreciate the clarification. Actually, I should clarify that I did not mean to allude to your or any of the thread posters' comments in particular. You mentioned your off-forum disscusion. I was surprised that the said person, an atheist, could have such views that normally one would associate with people who see issues through a prism of religious morality. So, I said that we as atheists (this includes me, atheist forum members who may just read but not post, and general curious visitors to the forum), should be careful of the usage and context of words.
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#30
(13-Jul-2010, 09:46 AM)manju Wrote: An Andhra Pradesh investigator's opinion about rape in general. I suppose this matters;
Quote:"Remember that rape although a sexual assault is all about domination," a seasoned investigator reasoned.

Mel Gibson's opinion about scantily clad woman;
Quote:Last week, a recording posted by RadarOnline.com included comments it said came from Gibson telling Grigorieva that she was dressing too provocatively and that it would be her fault if she were raped.

Mel Gibson, who? He's the one with 8 children, isn't he?

Well, primitive humans hardly wore anything. A caveman could just club a woman on the head and drag her away by her hair, if she refused to go with him.
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#31
(15-Jul-2010, 10:08 AM)Swati Wrote: Mel Gibson, who? He's the one with 8 children, isn't he?
He was the one who gave poetic justice to Scots by making William Wallace impregnate English queen. Maybe an example of a person who would never commit rape but defends rape under certain circumstances.

Quote:Well, primitive humans hardly wore anything. A caveman could just club a woman on the head and drag her away by her hair, if she refused to go with him.
I'm not very sure whether Mel Brooks was completely authentic in his portrayal of cavemen.
Manju Vadiarillat
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#32
(15-Jul-2010, 03:47 PM)manju Wrote:
(15-Jul-2010, 10:08 AM)Swati Wrote: Mel Gibson, who? He's the one with 8 children, isn't he?
He was the one who gave poetic justice to Scots by making William Wallace impregnate English queen. Maybe an example of a person who would never commit rape but defends rape under certain circumstances.

Quote:Well, primitive humans hardly wore anything. A caveman could just club a woman on the head and drag her away by her hair, if she refused to go with him.
I'm not very sure whether Mel Brooks was completely authentic in his portrayal of cavemen.

My point is that rapes have and will occur whether entire communities of people live in the nude or clothed from head to toe. For our topic, we should consider two categories of adult sex, i.e., consensual sex and forced sex. Only one of them is a crime.
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#33
(16-Jul-2010, 12:54 PM)Swati Wrote: For our topic, we should consider two categories of adult sex, i.e., consensual sex and forced sex. Only one of them is a crime.

Agreed. Not disputing that.
Manju Vadiarillat
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#34
I'm going to chime in here, I think discussing the moral premises of any justification of rape or not is a non-sequitur insofar this issue is concerned, primarily because the prosecution of rape, and the threat of prosecution as a deterrent, is not contingent on any morality as such; It is primarily a de jure issue.

People may blather on about how they think that victims were asking for it all they want, but the only thing of consequence is whether the law takes such arguments into consideration at all, and as far as I'm aware, anybody who claims that "sluttishness" is tantamount to consent has no leg to stand upon.

It is strictly a matter of what constitutes consent, and people must be aware that consent shouldn't be taken for granted even if someone was completely naked in public, and as far as I am concerned, that is the end of that.

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#35
(13-Jun-2011, 02:17 PM)ARChakravarthy Wrote: I'm going to chime in here, I think discussing the moral premises of any justification of rape or not is a non-sequitur insofar this issue is concerned, primarily because the prosecution of rape, and the threat of prosecution as a deterrent, is not contingent on any morality as such; It is primarily a de jure issue.

There are various moral premises involved in that statement. There is no escaping moral premises. Sitting down to type this post involved various moral premises. It's just a way of describing subjective elements that influence our normative decisions. Far from being a non sequitur, discussing premises is key to the study of ethics, and not acknowledging moral premises is a roadblock to ethical discussion.
"Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian"
~ J.B.S.Haldane, on being asked to falsify evolution.
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#36
(18-Jun-2011, 10:57 AM)Ajita Kamal Wrote:
(13-Jun-2011, 02:17 PM)ARChakravarthy Wrote: I'm going to chime in here, I think discussing the moral premises of any justification of rape or not is a non-sequitur insofar this issue is concerned, primarily because the prosecution of rape, and the threat of prosecution as a deterrent, is not contingent on any morality as such; It is primarily a de jure issue.

There are various moral premises involved in that statement. There is no escaping moral premises. Sitting down to type this post involved various moral premises. It's just a way of describing subjective elements that influence our normative decisions. Far from being a non sequitur, discussing premises is key to the study of ethics, and not acknowledging moral premises is a roadblock to ethical discussion.

Sure, but laws, while they may reflect general ethical viewpoints in society, aren't compelled to take them into consideration.

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