Are Women Who Get Raped "Asking For It By Dressing And Behaving Like Sluts"?
#37
(18-Jun-2011, 08:06 PM)ARChakravarthy Wrote:
(18-Jun-2011, 10:57 AM)Ajita Kamal Wrote:
(13-Jun-2011, 02:17 PM)ARChakravarthy Wrote: I'm going to chime in here, I think discussing the moral premises of any justification of rape or not is a non-sequitur insofar this issue is concerned, primarily because the prosecution of rape, and the threat of prosecution as a deterrent, is not contingent on any morality as such; It is primarily a de jure issue.

There are various moral premises involved in that statement. There is no escaping moral premises. Sitting down to type this post involved various moral premises. It's just a way of describing subjective elements that influence our normative decisions. Far from being a non sequitur, discussing premises is key to the study of ethics, and not acknowledging moral premises is a roadblock to ethical discussion.

Sure, but laws, while they may reflect general ethical viewpoints in society, aren't compelled to take them into consideration.

I don't get your point. You can say that about any ethical discussion, essentially dismissing all of ethical reasoning as irrelevant because the laws "aren't compelled to take them into consideration".
"Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian"
~ J.B.S.Haldane, on being asked to falsify evolution.
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#38
(18-Jun-2011, 09:31 PM)Ajita Kamal Wrote:
(18-Jun-2011, 08:06 PM)ARChakravarthy Wrote:
(18-Jun-2011, 10:57 AM)Ajita Kamal Wrote:
(13-Jun-2011, 02:17 PM)ARChakravarthy Wrote: I'm going to chime in here, I think discussing the moral premises of any justification of rape or not is a non-sequitur insofar this issue is concerned, primarily because the prosecution of rape, and the threat of prosecution as a deterrent, is not contingent on any morality as such; It is primarily a de jure issue.

There are various moral premises involved in that statement. There is no escaping moral premises. Sitting down to type this post involved various moral premises. It's just a way of describing subjective elements that influence our normative decisions. Far from being a non sequitur, discussing premises is key to the study of ethics, and not acknowledging moral premises is a roadblock to ethical discussion.

Sure, but laws, while they may reflect general ethical viewpoints in society, aren't compelled to take them into consideration.

I don't get your point. You can say that about any ethical discussion, essentially dismissing all of ethical reasoning as irrelevant because the laws "aren't compelled to take them into consideration".

The point is that it does become irrelevant insofar the legal process is concerned (limited to extant laws) is fundamentally a legal issue. This does not mean that there cannot be a discussion about the ethics of such cases, or that such things are wholly irrelevant in all circumstances.


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#39
(19-Jun-2011, 01:51 PM)ARChakravarthy Wrote: The point is that it does become irrelevant insofar the legal process is concerned (limited to extant laws) is fundamentally a legal issue. This does not mean that there cannot be a discussion about the ethics of such cases, or that such things are wholly irrelevant in all circumstances.

Right. If you go back and see my arguments, I wasn't talking about the law. I was making a point about the ethics. In fact, it is clear that a dominant thread in the discussion here is the ethics and not the law. In the context of what I was saying, moral premises are not at all non sequiturs.
"Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian"
~ J.B.S.Haldane, on being asked to falsify evolution.
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#40
Ajita, I did not go through the entire thread but found some data in post no 9. You have mentioned in a later post that under-reporting is a common problem in Saudi and so is it for all lesser developed countries. If you look at the suicide rates in India, you see a similar trend - Kerala tops the chart. Yes, social pressure is high in Kerala but so is case reporting.
Saudi's case would be a bit different because there is hardly any opportunity to find a 'vulnerable' woman. If men and women are put in separate rooms that are locked, we can prevent rape of the opposite sex, but that is not what a free society is like. Needless to say that rich have more power in these countries and can bend the law and is acceptable, normal people marry more than one, can rape their wives and so on in a 'legal' way! What I have seen is the acceptance of 'fate' by women in the middle east. I have talked to several of my colleagues who say that they do not expect much out of a marriage - "let him do anything, I dont mind. He just need to stay with me for sometime'' is the attitude that is widely seen.

If I had a daughter, I would rather prefer to let her live in Sydney than in Jeddah.
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#41
(21-Jun-2011, 08:46 AM)bobbykrishna Wrote: Ajita, I did not go through the entire thread but found some data in post no 9. You have mentioned in a later post that under-reporting is a common problem in Saudi and so is it for all lesser developed countries. If you look at the suicide rates in India, you see a similar trend - Kerala tops the chart. Yes, social pressure is high in Kerala but so is case reporting.
Saudi's case would be a bit different because there is hardly any opportunity to find a 'vulnerable' woman. If men and women are put in separate rooms that are locked, we can prevent rape of the opposite sex, but that is not what a free society is like. Needless to say that rich have more power in these countries and can bend the law and is acceptable, normal people marry more than one, can rape their wives and so on in a 'legal' way! What I have seen is the acceptance of 'fate' by women in the middle east. I have talked to several of my colleagues who say that they do not expect much out of a marriage - "let him do anything, I dont mind. He just need to stay with me for sometime'' is the attitude that is widely seen.

If I had a daughter, I would rather prefer to let her live in Sydney than in Jeddah.

And oh, there is also the fact that the woman, in Saudi Arabia, risks death for adultery if she cannot find four witnesses for rape.
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#42
(22-Jun-2010, 12:32 PM)Ajita Kamal Wrote: We are all familiar with a particular conservative argument in both India and the rest of the world (primarily from people in religious and highly patriarchal communities) that women who were raped must have been asking for it by wearing provocative clothing and behaving in an unbecoming manner. In some Islamic cultures, the women who are the victims of sexual assault receive punishment ranging from lashings to stoning and being buried alive, and the men are often absolved of their crimes based simply on their word that the woman whom they raped "temped" them by behaving inappropriately. The situation might not be so bad in most Hindu communities, but it does happen to a lesser extent, and the same mindset is present among the men. Sometimes in India the abused victim is forced to marry her rapist, thus dooming her to a life of torture, pain and humiliation (this happens in all cultural/religious groups in India).

The issue is connected to a general culture of oppression of women and is often used as a tool to keep them oppressed. It also takes place in the West where there is a far higher incidence of rape and abuse of women than would be apparent at first glance. Men in the West also make these disgusting justifications for rape.

Here is something someone said on a discussion on facebook today.

Quote:"Most sexual assaults are because people have put themselves in bad situations and then scream they were assaulted."

As we all know, the statistics on sexual assault are very clear that the vast majority of victims are women. The person who made the above statement is a man and an atheist who lives in California, one of the most progressive states in the United States.

Here are my thoughts on this phenomenon: These people who make these justifications are so barbaric and primitive in their thinking that they do not have the capacity to understand that feeling a sexual urge is not a license to assault another human being! To me, this seems like a pretty fundamental and given moral principle for any civilized human being (which reminds me, not one word about this is found in any of the great religious texts that are supposedly meant to teach us moral values). To these men, a woman is merely an object, so of course when they feel a sexual urge they do not see a person in front of them, just an object to be attained and used to satisfy their urges. This sort of objectification of women must then be justified through a systematic enculturation process involving religion and "tradition". Let us for a minute ignore the lunacy in the notion that all women who are raped must have been skimpily clothed (which could mean too much ankle in some cultures) and are trying to get any man to sleep with them. Let's suppose this is true, for argument's sake. How does this make it legitimate to rape these women? The only conclusion I can draw here is that these barbarians really do not even see women as people! What is more surprising is that such thinking seems to be fairly universal among men who are religious conservatives, and even among some who are not religious.

Please share your thoughts on this idea that women who are raped are somehow "asking for it" by being skimpily clothed and behaving in ways that arouse men. Also, how should this subject be addressed in society?

It indicates that you are not matured in your thought!

Whether they are Believers or Atheists - does not matter.
Of course, more religious people have this shit mind-set than non-believers. (40% and   10%).
That depends on the person. Womens' dress has nothing to do with this act.

Of course, if they wear transparent dress, I tend to look at their body shapes. I think majority men (or half percentage) men feel this. That is the nature of human being animals.
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