The Nirmukta Freethought Community

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I really really hate the burqa. I firmly believe that is a tool to subjugate women and keep them roped off from mainstream society. It has not done anything good for modern women or the growth of feminism.
But does banning it in public places (where Muslim women are required to wear it) infringe on their freedom to practice their religion? Is is anti-feminist to impose a dress code on a Muslim women? I don't really know the answers. I'm trying to figure out where I stand.
Where do you stand on this issue?

I'm against the ban. Curbing freedom of expression for whatever reason is setting a dangerous precedent. A much better solution would have been to setup a public campaign that explains that showing skin in public is not a sin and that it was an oppression technique concocted by sexually perverted desert savages. They could have also created some special laws to deal with people who force women to wear the burqa.

Learning from the French ban, I've learned this. Power of the majority should be a natural law here. 'Freedom of expression' doesn't necessarily cut through every situation. The burqa might be an expression of religion for some, but for most it remains a symbol of subjugation, oppression and isolation. Just like nakedness, although underlining the freedom of expression of an individual, conflicts with the public's view of modesty. As long as the latter is considered 'natural', so should the Burqa ban. We've applied the freedom argument against the Westboro Baptist Church and I don't think that has vested into the general ethical interest.

Although --

(02-05-2010 03:56 AM)Lije Wrote:  A much better solution would have been to setup a public campaign that explains that showing skin in public is not a sin and that it was an oppression technique concocted by sexually perverted desert savages. They could have also created some special laws to deal with people who force women to wear the burqa.

Yes.

(02-05-2010 06:59 AM)iconoclastmolotov Wrote:  Learning from the French ban, I've learned this. Power of the majority should be a natural law here. 'Freedom of expression' doesn't necessarily cut through every situation. The burqa might be an expression of religion for some, but for most it remains a symbol of subjugation, oppression and isolation. Just like nakedness, although underlining the freedom of expression of an individual, conflicts with the public's view of modesty. As long as the latter is considered 'natural', so should the Burqa ban. We've applied the freedom argument against the Westboro Baptist Church and I don't think that has vested into the general ethical interest.

Although --

(02-05-2010 03:56 AM)Lije Wrote:  A much better solution would have been to setup a public campaign that explains that showing skin in public is not a sin and that it was an oppression technique concocted by sexually perverted desert savages. They could have also created some special laws to deal with people who force women to wear the burqa.

Yes.

I agree with this point of view.

I just saw a video of self flagellation by the shia muslims for muharram its horrific....as it has children subjected to it.

(03-05-2010 12:53 PM)Sajit Wrote:  I just saw a video of self flagellation by the shia muslims for muharram its horrific....as it has children subjected to it.

That's just sick. I also hate it when parents make their little daughters wear the head scarf. It's sick. Kids should just be left out of it.

I don't think the 'freedom of expression' or the 'individual choice' are applicable here. The idea of Burkha has been promoted by patriarchal religious diktats. These religions of course have outlawed individual choices. Now supporting Burkha in the name of 'freedom of expression' is like supporting an idea which was created in opposition to the freedom of expression.

But the fact is those countries (France and Belgium) allow religion as a legitimate institution. I wonder whether they can be more adventurous. France were the nation which once made the marriage between at least one Jew in a family and a Catholic compulsory to integrate people (When the arranged marriage is a norm it doesn't matter. Does it?). Anyway, recently I read an article that the French state is not as strong as it was in 19th century. Its power to bring about radical changes in the French society has been diminished.

By the way, are there any strong arguments put forward by any Muslim ladies in support of Burkha? All, I have read/heard was "my religion, by personal choice" (contradictory), "I don't want any man other than my husband to see me"(fair enough, but what about her premarital days), "It protects their complexion in tropical environment"(I suppose by an overawed or jealous Hindu woman).

(03-05-2010 05:01 PM)palaeo Wrote:  

(03-05-2010 12:53 PM)Sajit Wrote:  I just saw a video of self flagellation by the shia muslims for muharram its horrific....as it has children subjected to it.

That's just sick. I also hate it when parents make their little daughters wear the head scarf. It's sick. Kids should just be left out of it.

Its beyond sick!! I sent that video to a friend who is a shia muslim ( a believer with whom I have many debates) and he said that subjecting kids to flagellation, injury is not allowed, its fanatical etc. Could not upload it here as it says different format.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUsEHKYF1fk

Here is one such video !!

(03-05-2010 05:49 PM)manju Wrote:  By the way, are there any strong arguments put forward by any Muslim ladies in support of Burkha? All, I have read/heard was "my religion, by personal choice" (contradictory), "I don't want any man other than my husband to see me"(fair enough, but what about her premarital days), "It protects their complexion in tropical environment"(I suppose by an overawed or jealous Hindu woman).

Another reason they give is women are delicate and helpless creatures, and if they go out without the burqa, they will most certainly be raped. Women who are brought up in an Islamic environment are thoroughly conditioned to be utterly horrified at the prospect of going out without the burqa. It is the similar as how we would feel if we were asked to go out naked in sub zero temperatures. The thought that they can go out without the burqa without any harm coming to them (at least in civilized parts of the world) doesn't even enter their brain.

On a side note, I think the ban on burqa may result in muslim women being house arrested given how rabidly most muslims follow the Quran.

(03-05-2010 05:49 PM)manju Wrote:  I don't think the 'freedom of expression' or the 'individual choice' are applicable here. The idea of Burkha has been promoted by patriarchal religious diktats. These religions of course have outlawed individual choices. Now supporting Burkha in the name of 'freedom of expression' is like supporting an idea which was created in opposition to the freedom of expression.

By the way, are there any strong arguments put forward by any Muslim ladies in support of Burkha? All, I have read/heard was "my religion, by personal choice" (contradictory), "I don't want any man other than my husband to see me"(fair enough, but what about her premarital days), "It protects their complexion in tropical environment"(I suppose by an overawed or jealous Hindu woman).

I have to agree with this. There are just too many laws that protect religious sentiment.
The bottom line is, in a public arena, you should leave your personal beliefs at the door. Especially destructive beliefs.
If in normal society, you would not appreciate a white supremacist wearing a white robe and hood to teach kids why allow a fully covered up woman to work in a bank/supermarket/office/school. Nor would you appreciate a woman wearing a huge crucifix to work and decorating her work place with religious novelties and stickers.
At least I wouldn't. And I wouldn't post atheist stickers on my work station, nor would I wear an atheist t-shirt to work.

(03-05-2010 09:35 PM)Lije Wrote:  

(03-05-2010 05:49 PM)manju Wrote:  By the way, are there any strong arguments put forward by any Muslim ladies in support of Burkha? All, I have read/heard was "my religion, by personal choice" (contradictory), "I don't want any man other than my husband to see me"(fair enough, but what about her premarital days), "It protects their complexion in tropical environment"(I suppose by an overawed or jealous Hindu woman).

Another reason they give is women are delicate and helpless creatures, and if they go out without the burqa, they will most certainly be raped. Women who are brought up in an Islamic environment are thoroughly conditioned to be utterly horrified at the prospect of going out without the burqa. It is the similar as how we would feel if we were asked to go out naked in sub zero temperatures. The thought that they can go out without the burqa without any harm coming to them (at least in civilized parts of the world) doesn't even enter their brain.

On a side note, I think the ban on burqa may result in muslim women being house arrested given how rabidly most muslims follow the Quran.

Yup yup. I once knew a girl in school who wore a head scarf. We were both around 9 years old. I asked her why she wore a scarf and she gave me some weird explanation about how hair attracts men and that if she showed off her hair in public she would get undue attention. All I could think at that age was, "What the hell is she talking about?!"
Sexuality is a strange and complicated thing, and to make a CHILD feel guilty about their HAIR is sick to me.
I hate the argument that women who are "exposed" would cause men to sin with their minds and bodies. I want to crush bones when I hear that. Talk about misplaced blame.