The Nirmukta Freethought Community

This discussion originally took place on the facebook debate group.

Started off with a Hindu apologist linking to Stephan Knapp's "evidences".

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/art_photo_twentyone.htm
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/art_photo_twenty.htm
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/art_photo_eleven.htm
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/art_photo_six.htm
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/art_photo_nine.htm

Responses to it:

Quote:Saravanan Dhakshinamurthy ‎@Sarang

As I said earlier, I would have to cut your tail for history revisionism. Almost all of the Internet mail chains about Hindu jingoism, posts and tweets about Hindu idols in Saudi Arabia, Taj Mahal or whatever controversial claims be it, can be sourced to one prolific ISKCON revisionist Stephen Knap aka Sri Nandanandana Dasa.

His academics posted on his website does not mention him to be a Historian, which he thinks gives him the liberty to the fourth dimension in interpreting, cherry picking and twisting whatever iota of resemblence he encounters in his "independent" (should sound an alarm) research of Eastern philosophies.

Critical thinking is abysmally low in Spiritual circles and an unknown entity among Supremacists, who had already disowned their mind of any rational thinking. Hindu supremacists like you would go head over heels to hear whatever crap he spits out to gobble up his Vedic [sic] cred..

Lets see your incoherent reply to my post.

To kick out your "Checkmate"

Quote:Saraswati vigraha was found from kaaba. It is now at British meuseum.

Here is the Saraswati vigraha I mentioned.

You mentioned that it was recovered from Kaaba, and now at British meuseum [sic]

Here is the link to the British Museum Collection's database search :
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/se...abase.aspx

Do let us know if you find it. Btw .. if you try to sneak out, that it is not available for online search.

Do read the British Museum's disclosure on what is not available (this statue should be available if displayed for the public) for online search.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/se...ation.aspx

To let you know, not all artifacts would be displayed or catalogued for the public, unless they are "very sure" of the origins, antiquity and history behind the artifact.

Quote:Rahul Seth
Two men and horse = Ramanaya
Lady on a swan = Saraswati
Cattle herder = Krishna
Face painting = Hindu
Worship of Animals = Hinduism
Worship of Stones = Hinduism
Worship of Phallic Stones = Shiva Linga
Anthropomorphic animals = Hindu deities

Awesome critical reasoning skills.

Quote:Saravanan Dhakshinamurthy Contd ...
Here again, we can make you walk the rope and push you for the date or the credentials of the historian who discovered it inside Kaaba, but that would be an overkill. Even spiritually stoned Stephen Knap does not mention that it was discovered inside Kaaba, Sarang S Kumar did. The conformitary traits of supremacists and their extrapolation of unfound facts, always amazes me.

Quote:If Hindu influence on Arabia is unbelievable to you, how about Greece, Italy, and Russia?

Do post what Stephen Knap had interpreted out to those artifacts:

From Greece:
"Obviously this is Lord Krishna the Hindu incarnation in his boyhood."

From Saudi Arabia:
"Stories of Allauddin, or Aladdin, and His Lamp come from ancient Vedic India, although many give credit to Arabia. "

From Italy:
"The founding of Rome is ascribed to brothers Remus and Ramulus--which are latter-day variations of the Hindu name Rama."

To read more about Stephen Knap's keen eye for finding Vedic art in a haystack, visit his photographic evidence page :

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/photographi...luence.htm

I would still remain skeptical about "Hindu" influence on the middle east and even more in Europe. You want to know the reason why because there is a better explanation than a mystical vedic civilization that Hindu Nuts tend to believe flourished all across the globe. It could be "Trade" - people migrated all the time, exchanged goods and artifacts.

Finding an unusual artifact in far off places, does not mean that the ancient sons of the soil, practised "Hinduism".

Quote:Saravanan Dhakshinamurthy
To give a better perspective to others, Ancient Roman coins have been unearthed many times in Tamil Nadu. There have been credible records of Yavanas or Roman merchants in Tamil literature. A Roman Supremacist might twist the evidence and finding of Roman antiques in the far off lands of Indian subcontinent and extrapolate it to Roman Domination of Ancient Tamil kingdoms / Roman colonies / Roman civilization, when the consensus among Historians for finding that artifact were due to "Trade".

The same extrapolation is being done cheekily by Sarang S Kumar that pre Islamic Saudi Arabia, ancient Greece, Italy and even Russia were Vedic Hindu societies.

Half of the photographic evidence from Middle east that Sarang had produced from Stephen Knap website were referenced from - Long missing links, or, The Marvellous Discoveries about the Aryans, Jesus Christ and Allah" by Vaduvur K Duraiswami Ayyangar, another Hindu revisionist. Do I need to say that this work never gained any acceptance ?

On one hand, modern Hindus like Sarang discredit as he did in his last thread ( in the past they belived it for its benefits ) the Aryan Invasion Theory, Aryan Migration Theory or Indo Aryan Theory to show that Hinduism and its philosophies originated in India. Now the cognitive dissonance caused in Hindus when they "believe" of ancient Vedic ( I wonder if this is a right term when there is no consensus of them being under Hindu influence of the Vedic age or any other for that matter ) artifacts discovered along the migration paths of Indo Aryans, leads us to a new chapter of Hindu revisionism, in the form of a Global Vedic civilization that spanned the entire ancient world.

Oh boy in the pissing contest between Hindu Supremacists and Islamists, the Hindus seem to have an upper hand in incessant revisionism.

Quote:Respect others, or you will be taught to respect.

Do get back to the cave that you came out if you have this attitude. I did not disrespect you in any way when I warned you for making jingoistic claims without any evidence. This is the Indian Atheist Debate forum and you do not have a free pass to get away with your own manufactured facts.

Quote:Rahul Seth
‎Saravanan, check out the Art Photo # 22.
Roman god Neptune has a trident.
Trident = Shiva
Poseidon has a trident too = Shiva
Both are Gods of sea.
Greek and Romans confirmed for stealing everything from astronomy to medicine from Vedic civilization (even though Shiva is not Vedic).

Trident = Pitchfork
Pitchfork is an agricultural tool used since middle ages
Pitchfork = Fork
Fork = Utensil

Agriculture and Utensils are the inventions of Shiva.

Oh, Fork = Blivet, optical illusion
Optical Illusion = Maya
Hinduism confirmed for being way ahead of its time.

Quote:Rahul Seth

‎Saravanan Dhakshinamurthy Wrote:Ancient Roman coins have been unearthed many times in Tamil Nadu. There have been credible records of Yavanas or Roman merchants in Tamil literature. A Roman Supremacist might twist the evidence and finding of Roman antiques in the far off lands of Indian subcontinent and extrapolate it to Roman Domination of Ancient Tamil kingdoms / Roman colonies / Roman civilization, when the consensus among Historians for finding that artifact were due to "Trade".

Good point. This led me to search about the influence of Greek empires in Greater India (particularly, Western India). I stumbled upon the claim that some Sanskrit words were borrowed from Greek language:

- "ink" (Sankrit: melā, Greek: μέλαν "melan")
- "pen" (Sanskrit: kalamo, Greek:κάλαμος "kalamos")
- "book" (Sanskrit: pustaka, Greek: πύξινον "puksinon")
- "bridle", a horse's bit (Sanskrit: khalina, Greek: χαλινός "khalinos")
- "center" (Sanskrit: kendram, Greek: κέντρον "kentron")

all the citation on Wikipedia are dead and I can't find anything on Googleyā. Does anybody know anything about this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_the_Indo-Greeks

Quote:Saravanan Dhakshinamurthy ‎
Rahul Seth On a lighter note of all the "photographic evidences" cited by Revisionist Stephen Knap. This one tops the list Namam traced on Egyptian Artifact ... :p

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/art_photo_three.htm

I am really amazed at Hindu apologists and supremacists who go gaga reading "Egyptian monarch of the 19th dynasty" bearing namam all over his body, without questioning the credibility, the name of the figure and which century did that figure belong to.

Leave that, but atleast they should spot the contradiction in Mr. Ayyangar's notes which depict the statue to be a Raja Rishi with Vaishnavite caste marks and sadari on his lap. There exists contradiction even amongst revisionists to ascertain if their namam egyptian statue was a Hindu priest or a Hindu monarch. Shabbaaaaa :|

Quote:Rahul Seth

‎Saravanan Dhakshinamurthy Wrote:I am really amazed at Hindu apologists and supremacists who go gaga reading "Egyptian monarch of the 19th dynasty" bearing namam all over his body, without questioning the credibility, the name of the figure and which century did that figure belong to.

Confirmation bias and ignorance. Hindu supremacist (nice!) don't even bother to check the credibility of these claims.

Look at the next one,

Art Photo #4:

Quote:"Hindu architect of the pyramids looking at an unfolded architectural scrolls. He is wearing Hindu marks on his body. This should underline the need to reconstruct the worldwide sway of Hinduism in ancient times currently wiped out of all history"

So who's this architect? Imhotep. The page credits "Egyptian Myth and Legend (page 365)" for the photo. Did a search, here's the real one:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/eml/img/37400.jpg
http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/eml/eml40.htm#page_368
More about him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imhotep

The photographic "evidence" is modified with body painting and namam/tilok. And Art Photo #3 is probably Seti I or Ramses. Talk about intellectual dishonesty.

Art Photo # 5:

Quote:"Bulls were worshipped in Ancient Hindu Egypt as they are still worshipped in Hindu India"

"A Smartha King of Thebes - worshipping the Apis-bull (Nanthi) - with the sandal streak caste-marks - Page 70 of Egyptian Myth and Legends"

O'RLY?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/eml/eml08.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/eml/img/07100.jpg
No sandal streak caste-marks.

People in Memphis also worshipped other gods like Sekhmet (Warrior goddess depicted as a lioness) (woot! I found the origin of furry fandom)

more sacred animals:

Quote:top: left to right: Cat (Bast); Uræus, with horns; Shrine with Sokar Hawk; Ape (Thoth); Ibis (Thoth).
bottom, left to right: Apis Bull; Fish (Lepidotus); Jackal (Anubis); Snake (form of Uazit); Cat with Kittens (Bast).

None of these are related to Hindu pantheon, but hey, who cares?

Art Photo # 7:

Quote:"Roman consul wearing the Hindu forehead mark indicating that in ancient times Romans were Hindus. Roman emperors also sported the title 'Dev' as the termination of their names in the Hindu royal style. [The 'V' mark is called tilok, and is worn on the forehead to represent that one is a Vaishnava, a worshiper of Lord Krishna or Vishnu.]"

Picture of Pompey with tilok. LOL!

Art Photo #8:

Quote:"A Roman superior wearing the Hindu dhoti, chappals (sandals) and Hindu marks on his neck and forehead--reminding one of the times when Europe practiced Hinduism."

Roman Togas are now Dhotis, great.

Art Photo #9:

Quote:"A Ramayanic episode found painted in ancient Italian homes; Lav and Kusha driving away a captured royal sacrificial horse belonging to their father Rama. The founding of Rome is ascribed to brothers Remus and Ramulus--which are latter-day variations of the Hindu name Rama."

Romulus and Remus = Lav and Kusha, or Rama and Lakshman? Wow.

Art Photo # 17:

Quote:"An Australian bushman wearing the Hindu sandal mark on his forehead in ancient times when the world practised Hinduism. A bell bearing Tamil inscriptions once formed part of an Australian fisherman's catch. The vast expanse of water from the Americas to Australia, is known as the Indian Ocean precisely because the Indian fleet held unchallenged sway over it. The word 'navy' is itself the Sanskrit word "Navi" signifying boats. "

Australian Bushman practised Hinduism? Yeah, why leave them alone, Hindus ruled on other planets too. They are already on Gliese 581 d.

Art Photo # 21:

Quote:"This image from pre-Islamic Saudi Arabia, displayed at the British Museum, shows goddess Sarasvati riding a swan carrier."

Or maybe its Venus or Leda. I can't find that exact figure on British Museum site.

Non-stop laugh riot. I used to think those conspiracy theorists who see patterns in ancient human creations as indicative of alien influence are certifiable. This Hindu revisionism makes them seem sane in comparison.

The Oakists!

[After PN Oak: http://tilak.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/...logist.htm . PN Oak is the dude whose claims were so ridiculous even Koenraad Elst thinks so: http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2010/06...n-oak.html ]

I am shocked by the number of Oakists in the world.

Most recently someone I know was arguing that M3xic@n food tastes like !ndi@n because M3xic0 is actually the P@t@aL@ lok@ or N@g@l0k@ which @rjun@ visits in M@h@bh@rath@. #facepalm

(Forgive the semi-l33tspeak, I just don't want that person landing here with a Google search, given the unique coincidence of these words.)

Ladies and gentlemen, we have ''(PN) Oakham's razor"

"The explanation that involves an ancient Hindu civilization that ruled the entire universe and beyond for billions of years (only to be destroyed by non-Hindus) is most certainly the correct one."

Knapp makes good use of Oak's crackpot theory.

(08-10-2011 01:43 AM)karatalaamalaka Wrote:  Most recently someone I know was arguing that M3xic@n food tastes like !ndi@n because M3xic0 is actually the P@t@aL@ lok@ or N@g@l0k@ which @rjun@ visits in M@h@bh@rath@. #facepalm

(08-10-2011 01:43 AM)karatalaamalaka Wrote:  Ladies and gentlemen, ''(PN) Oakham's razor"

"The explanation that involves an ancient Hindu civilization that ruled the entire universe and beyond for billions of years (only to be destroyed by non-Hindus) is most certainly the correct one."

The 'America is Patala' theory is shockingly mainstream in Hindu supremacist circles well before Knapp. Consider the following theories for the origin of the name of California.

(A) From a revered spokesperson and revivalist of Hindu orthodoxy here

Quote:You know that the Sagaras went on digging the earth down to the nether world in search of their sacrificial horse. An ocean came into being in this way and it was called sagara after the king Sagara.

The Sagaras, at last found the horse near the hermitage of Kapila Maharsi. Thinking that he must be the man who had stolen the animal and hidden it in the nether world they laid violent hands on him. Whereupon the sage reduced them to ashes with a mere glance of his eye. Such is the story according to the Ramayana. America, which is at the antipodes, may be taken to Patala or the nether world. Kapilaranya(the forest in which Kapila had his hermitage), we may further take it, was situated there. It is likely that Kapilaranya changed to California in the same manner as Madurai is something altered to "Marudai". Also noteworthy is the fact that there is a Horse Island near California as well as an Ash Island.

Another idea occurs to me about Sagara and sagara. Geologists believe that ages ago the Sahara desert was an ocean. It seems to me that Sahara is derived from sagara.

(B) From wikipedia

Quote:California was the name given to a mythical island populated only by beautiful Amazon warriors using gold tools and weapons in the popular early 16th-century romance novel Las Sergas de Esplandián (The Adventures of Esplandián) by Spanish author Garci Rodríguez de Montalvo. This popular Spanish novel was printed in several editions with the earliest surviving edition published about 1510. The novel described the Island of California as being east of the Asian mainland, "very close to the side of the Terrestrial Paradise; and it is peopled by women, without any man among them, for they live in the manner of Amazons." The Island was ruled by Queen Calafia. When the Spanish started exploring the Pacific coast they applied this name on their maps to what is now called the Baja Peninsula they originally thought was an island. Once the name was on the maps it stuck.

Applying Occam's razor (economy of assumptions), (B) wins. Anyone who picks (A) is certainly using ''(PN) Oakham's razor"

Hi,
I just read a part of Mr. Knapp's theory last night and was told a friend swears by it .I had seen his photo evidences on the taj and other building s in the past as forwarded emails and dismissed it as rather amateur. However, I thought it might be fairer of me to at least study his ideas for a bit.
It confused me as to why Knapp's theory chooses to only discredit everyone ele without having substantial and solid evidence. For example, he claims in http://www.stephen-knapp.com/red_fort_photo_two.htm
that "This painting preserved in the Bodleian Library, Oxford, was reproduced in the Illustrated Weekly of India (page 32) of March 14, 1971. Since Shahjahan was in the fort in the year of his accession, this documentary evidence disproves the notion that he built the fort. Compare with this the photo of the tablet in English raised inside the fort by the Govt. of India's archaeology department asserting that Shahjahan built the fort during 1639-48. This is emphatic proof of Indian history having been thoroughly falsified during Muslim rule in India."
and yet, by the same token, before making such emphatic statements, he was unable to discover "Though this fort was thought to be built in 1639, there are documents and a painting available of Shah Jahan receiving the Persian ambassador in 1638 at the jharokha in the Diwan-i-Aam in the Red fort. This painting preserved in the Bodleian Library, Oxford, was reproduced in the Illustrated Weekly of India (page 32) of 14 March 1971. However the painting shows the jharokha at Lahore, and not Delhi. See History of Mughal Architecture, R. Nath, Abhinav Publications, 2006"
I really do feel that his work albeit interesting can be rather misleading

From the Facebook Nirmukta Skeptics discussion (context is this comment at Nirmukta.com ):

If such theories were espoused occasionally, they could be dismissed as the delusions of individuals. However, there has been a significant effort in the alternate universe of conspiracy theorists to make these crazy historical narratives mainstream. The self-proclaimed historian PN Oak stands out in this crowd- http://tilak.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/...logist.htm

The origin of such crazy theories dates back to the Indian nationalist movement of the late 19th to early 20th century. From about 1800, when the British gained a foothold in India, all the way up to the early 20th century, our colonial overlords wrote Indian history with an ideological bias grounded in the theories of western racial superiority. This is documented in respected peer-reviewed research of today. Though it might be a presentist fallacy to dismiss colonial Indologists as incompetent, objectivity was certainly lacking in some of their historiography. An example of this is the Madras Observatory, which was opened in the early 1800s with a pillar inscribed with the words "...posterity may be informed a thousand years hence of the period when the mathematical sciences were first planted by British liberality in Asia." This assumption is factually incorrect, and reeks of imperialism.

The late 1800s saw the rise of Indian nationalism in personalities like Bal Gangadhar Tilak and new organizations such as the Indian National Congress. Accompanying this was the so-called Hindu Reformation. The nationalists and the Hindu reformists alike started espousing theories which in retrospect appear to be the reactionary opposite of colonial Indology. Examples included Tilak's grandiose claims about Mt. Meru (http://books.google.com/books?id=GqlDAAA...&f=false), Aurobindo's theories about the superiority of Indian thought, etc.

Both the colonial Indologists and the nationalists/reformists had some theories that were reasonable given the state of archeology and history during their lifetimes. Some of their concerns regarding bias were also legitimate given the events of their time.

The main problem with modern proponents of such theories is that they disregard much of the enormous knowledge that humanity has gained in various fields in the last 100 years!

(07-10-2011 09:54 AM)Lije Wrote:  You mentioned that it was recovered from Kaaba, and now at British meuseum [sic]

Here is the link to the British Museum Collection's database search :
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/se...abase.aspx

Do let us know if you find it. Btw .. if you try to sneak out, that it is not available for online search.
Or maybe its Venus or Leda. I can't find that exact figure on British Museum site.

Britishmuseum's site doesn't include everything, i had my parents there in british museum, they took photos along with the group of the statues, idols that came from afghanistan, pakistan etc, none of them are presented in their website still, it reads that database is still incomplete.