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Debunking Stephen Knapp's Revisionism
This discussion originally took place on the facebook debate group
Started off with a Hindu apologist linking to Stephan Knapp's "evidences".
Responses to it:
Quote:Saravanan Dhakshinamurthy @Sarang
As I said earlier, I would have to cut your tail for history revisionism. Almost all of the Internet mail chains about Hindu jingoism, posts and tweets about Hindu idols in Saudi Arabia, Taj Mahal or whatever controversial claims be it, can be sourced to one prolific ISKCON revisionist Stephen Knap aka Sri Nandanandana Dasa.
His academics posted on his website does not mention him to be a Historian, which he thinks gives him the liberty to the fourth dimension in interpreting, cherry picking and twisting whatever iota of resemblence he encounters in his "independent" (should sound an alarm) research of Eastern philosophies.
Critical thinking is abysmally low in Spiritual circles and an unknown entity among Supremacists, who had already disowned their mind of any rational thinking. Hindu supremacists like you would go head over heels to hear whatever crap he spits out to gobble up his Vedic [sic] cred..
Lets see your incoherent reply to my post.
To kick out your "Checkmate"
Quote:Saraswati vigraha was found from kaaba. It is now at British meuseum.
Here is the Saraswati vigraha I mentioned.
You mentioned that it was recovered from Kaaba, and now at British meuseum [sic]
Here is the link to the British Museum Collection's database search :
Do let us know if you find it. Btw .. if you try to sneak out, that it is not available for online search.
Do read the British Museum's disclosure on what is not available (this statue should be available if displayed for the public) for online search.
To let you know, not all artifacts would be displayed or catalogued for the public, unless they are "very sure" of the origins, antiquity and history behind the artifact.
Two men and horse = Ramanaya
Lady on a swan = Saraswati
Cattle herder = Krishna
Face painting = Hindu
Worship of Animals = Hinduism
Worship of Stones = Hinduism
Worship of Phallic Stones = Shiva Linga
Anthropomorphic animals = Hindu deities
Awesome critical reasoning skills.
Quote:Saravanan Dhakshinamurthy Contd ...
Here again, we can make you walk the rope and push you for the date or the credentials of the historian who discovered it inside Kaaba, but that would be an overkill. Even spiritually stoned Stephen Knap does not mention that it was discovered inside Kaaba, Sarang S Kumar did. The conformitary traits of supremacists and their extrapolation of unfound facts, always amazes me.
Quote:If Hindu influence on Arabia is unbelievable to you, how about Greece, Italy, and Russia?
Do post what Stephen Knap had interpreted out to those artifacts:
"Obviously this is Lord Krishna the Hindu incarnation in his boyhood."
From Saudi Arabia:
"Stories of Allauddin, or Aladdin, and His Lamp come from ancient Vedic India, although many give credit to Arabia. "
"The founding of Rome is ascribed to brothers Remus and Ramulus--which are latter-day variations of the Hindu name Rama."
To read more about Stephen Knap's keen eye for finding Vedic art in a haystack, visit his photographic evidence page :
I would still remain skeptical about "Hindu" influence on the middle east and even more in Europe. You want to know the reason why because there is a better explanation than a mystical vedic civilization that Hindu Nuts tend to believe flourished all across the globe. It could be "Trade" - people migrated all the time, exchanged goods and artifacts.
Finding an unusual artifact in far off places, does not mean that the ancient sons of the soil, practised "Hinduism".
To give a better perspective to others, Ancient Roman coins have been unearthed many times in Tamil Nadu. There have been credible records of Yavanas or Roman merchants in Tamil literature. A Roman Supremacist might twist the evidence and finding of Roman antiques in the far off lands of Indian subcontinent and extrapolate it to Roman Domination of Ancient Tamil kingdoms / Roman colonies / Roman civilization, when the consensus among Historians for finding that artifact were due to "Trade".
The same extrapolation is being done cheekily by Sarang S Kumar that pre Islamic Saudi Arabia, ancient Greece, Italy and even Russia were Vedic Hindu societies.
Half of the photographic evidence from Middle east that Sarang had produced from Stephen Knap website were referenced from - Long missing links, or, The Marvellous Discoveries about the Aryans, Jesus Christ and Allah" by Vaduvur K Duraiswami Ayyangar, another Hindu revisionist. Do I need to say that this work never gained any acceptance ?
On one hand, modern Hindus like Sarang discredit as he did in his last thread ( in the past they belived it for its benefits ) the Aryan Invasion Theory, Aryan Migration Theory or Indo Aryan Theory to show that Hinduism and its philosophies originated in India. Now the cognitive dissonance caused in Hindus when they "believe" of ancient Vedic ( I wonder if this is a right term when there is no consensus of them being under Hindu influence of the Vedic age or any other for that matter ) artifacts discovered along the migration paths of Indo Aryans, leads us to a new chapter of Hindu revisionism, in the form of a Global Vedic civilization that spanned the entire ancient world.
Oh boy in the pissing contest between Hindu Supremacists and Islamists, the Hindus seem to have an upper hand in incessant revisionism.
Quote:Respect others, or you will be taught to respect.
Do get back to the cave that you came out if you have this attitude. I did not disrespect you in any way when I warned you for making jingoistic claims without any evidence. This is the Indian Atheist Debate forum and you do not have a free pass to get away with your own manufactured facts.
Saravanan, check out the Art Photo # 22.
Roman god Neptune has a trident.
Trident = Shiva
Poseidon has a trident too = Shiva
Both are Gods of sea.
Greek and Romans confirmed for stealing everything from astronomy to medicine from Vedic civilization (even though Shiva is not Vedic).
Trident = Pitchfork
Pitchfork is an agricultural tool used since middle ages
Pitchfork = Fork
Fork = Utensil
Agriculture and Utensils are the inventions of Shiva.
Oh, Fork = Blivet, optical illusion
Optical Illusion = Maya
Hinduism confirmed for being way ahead of its time.
Saravanan Dhakshinamurthy Wrote:Ancient Roman coins have been unearthed many times in Tamil Nadu. There have been credible records of Yavanas or Roman merchants in Tamil literature. A Roman Supremacist might twist the evidence and finding of Roman antiques in the far off lands of Indian subcontinent and extrapolate it to Roman Domination of Ancient Tamil kingdoms / Roman colonies / Roman civilization, when the consensus among Historians for finding that artifact were due to "Trade".
Good point. This led me to search about the influence of Greek empires in Greater India (particularly, Western India). I stumbled upon the claim that some Sanskrit words were borrowed from Greek language:
- "ink" (Sankrit: melā, Greek: μέλαν "melan")
- "pen" (Sanskrit: kalamo, Greek:κάλαμος "kalamos")
- "book" (Sanskrit: pustaka, Greek: πύξινον "puksinon")
- "bridle", a horse's bit (Sanskrit: khalina, Greek: χαλινός "khalinos")
- "center" (Sanskrit: kendram, Greek: κέντρον "kentron")
all the citation on Wikipedia are dead and I can't find anything on Googleyā. Does anybody know anything about this?
Rahul Seth On a lighter note of all the "photographic evidences" cited by Revisionist Stephen Knap. This one tops the list Namam traced on Egyptian Artifact ... :p
I am really amazed at Hindu apologists and supremacists who go gaga reading "Egyptian monarch of the 19th dynasty" bearing namam all over his body, without questioning the credibility, the name of the figure and which century did that figure belong to.
Leave that, but atleast they should spot the contradiction in Mr. Ayyangar's notes which depict the statue to be a Raja Rishi with Vaishnavite caste marks and sadari on his lap. There exists contradiction even amongst revisionists to ascertain if their namam egyptian statue was a Hindu priest or a Hindu monarch. Shabbaaaaa :|
Saravanan Dhakshinamurthy Wrote:I am really amazed at Hindu apologists and supremacists who go gaga reading "Egyptian monarch of the 19th dynasty" bearing namam all over his body, without questioning the credibility, the name of the figure and which century did that figure belong to.
Confirmation bias and ignorance. Hindu supremacist (nice!) don't even bother to check the credibility of these claims.
Look at the next one,
Art Photo #4:
Quote:"Hindu architect of the pyramids looking at an unfolded architectural scrolls. He is wearing Hindu marks on his body. This should underline the need to reconstruct the worldwide sway of Hinduism in ancient times currently wiped out of all history"
So who's this architect? Imhotep. The page credits "Egyptian Myth and Legend (page 365)" for the photo. Did a search, here's the real one:
More about him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imhotep
The photographic "evidence" is modified with body painting and namam/tilok. And Art Photo #3 is probably Seti I or Ramses. Talk about intellectual dishonesty.
Art Photo # 5:
Quote:"Bulls were worshipped in Ancient Hindu Egypt as they are still worshipped in Hindu India"
"A Smartha King of Thebes - worshipping the Apis-bull (Nanthi) - with the sandal streak caste-marks - Page 70 of Egyptian Myth and Legends"
No sandal streak caste-marks.
People in Memphis also worshipped other gods like Sekhmet (Warrior goddess depicted as a lioness) (woot! I found the origin of furry fandom)
more sacred animals:
Quote:top: left to right: Cat (Bast); Uræus, with horns; Shrine with Sokar Hawk; Ape (Thoth); Ibis (Thoth).
bottom, left to right: Apis Bull; Fish (Lepidotus); Jackal (Anubis); Snake (form of Uazit); Cat with Kittens (Bast).
None of these are related to Hindu pantheon, but hey, who cares?
Art Photo # 7:
Quote:"Roman consul wearing the Hindu forehead mark indicating that in ancient times Romans were Hindus. Roman emperors also sported the title 'Dev' as the termination of their names in the Hindu royal style. [The 'V' mark is called tilok, and is worn on the forehead to represent that one is a Vaishnava, a worshiper of Lord Krishna or Vishnu.]"
Picture of Pompey with tilok. LOL!
Art Photo #8:
Quote:"A Roman superior wearing the Hindu dhoti, chappals (sandals) and Hindu marks on his neck and forehead--reminding one of the times when Europe practiced Hinduism."
Roman Togas are now Dhotis, great.
Art Photo #9:
Quote:"A Ramayanic episode found painted in ancient Italian homes; Lav and Kusha driving away a captured royal sacrificial horse belonging to their father Rama. The founding of Rome is ascribed to brothers Remus and Ramulus--which are latter-day variations of the Hindu name Rama."
Romulus and Remus = Lav and Kusha, or Rama and Lakshman? Wow.
Art Photo # 17:
Quote:"An Australian bushman wearing the Hindu sandal mark on his forehead in ancient times when the world practised Hinduism. A bell bearing Tamil inscriptions once formed part of an Australian fisherman's catch. The vast expanse of water from the Americas to Australia, is known as the Indian Ocean precisely because the Indian fleet held unchallenged sway over it. The word 'navy' is itself the Sanskrit word "Navi" signifying boats. "
Australian Bushman practised Hinduism? Yeah, why leave them alone, Hindus ruled on other planets too. They are already on Gliese 581 d.
Art Photo # 21:
Quote:"This image from pre-Islamic Saudi Arabia, displayed at the British Museum, shows goddess Sarasvati riding a swan carrier."
Or maybe its Venus or Leda. I can't find that exact figure on British Museum site.