Do caste names propagate the caste divide?
#25
(10-Oct-2012, 10:26 AM)Gayaisbrown Wrote: Before I start replying I level a charge against So called Gayathri Iyer, is out here to distort the meanings of the arguements which I've made, to her last communication. She misquotes my arguements and gives irrelavent replies. I wish someone seriously moderates the arguements between me and Gayathri. Please people find how far she is out there to distort my words, by reading between the lines. This is not the healthy way to go ahead for Rationalists debate forum.

Note for Gayathri: Stop replying without going through the whole post. You are making irrelavent comments and raising questions, for which I have already replied in the last reply itself. Please continue the debate for constructive sharing of knowledge and Ideas, stop distorting my words, I asked for proofs from you for several charges which you made against me…


Quote:Come on, in social engineering just a single curative act won't vanish the rotten sydrome or disease one has. Avoiding caste name from public display will avoid certain types of privileges you get by displaying it publicly-. The main idea behind framing such a cultural system is to avoid the biases and undue privileges specifically associated with this public display of caste names. For example, if a person has his caste name in public display, the teachers in school would find it 99% easier to group people and do favouritism according to their caste interests. If caste names are avoid from using publicly would such a easy nepotism be possible that easily???. Like this we can give n number of examples.

Quote:It doesn't because there are plenty of OTHER caste indicators than last name--the language, the way you dress/look, who your parents are, where you are from, which social groups you belong to, your dietary habits, etc all give out caste.

Oh cmon, what kind of reply is this, you repeating what i've said, simply in other words. Please don't make dry arguements, come up with solid points.

Quote:A teacher can easily make out on this basis and they often do in Tamil Nadu. There's a entire groups of Dalit students who are failed or harassed by teachers and professors (non-Brahmin teachers/proffs at that).

Cmon why you single out Non-brahmins alone???? Aren't you casteist here??? Casteist are there in all spheres. Not only non-Brahmins or Brahmins. Do show me a single arguement in which I sounded casteist like you.... Quote without distorting what i've said.

Quote:A teacher can easily make out on this basis and they often do in Tamil Nadu.

Citation please, How do you say they do often. How you are singling out Tamil Nadu alone???? What is the need for you to say often in TN, did I ever said anywhere Tamil nadu teachers never harass SC-ST students???? What emprical data makes Tamil Nadu teachers are exceptionally casteist. Is this arguement of yours is not out of your hatred for Tamil nadu???? Did I ever say removing caste name would remove caste bias rooted out of colour, cloth, parents and looks would also vanish??? I was repeating all along my last reply that removing caste names would remove only biases related to caste names. Others will remain as such untill those caste bias tools are tackled properly.

Quote:What I like to say is that, the way you stress its a bogus logic is itself showing how much hatred you do have towards, people who advocated this act of doing away with caste names. Can I suspect that you hate dravidian/Self-respect movement to the core????


Quote:I stress the logic because it is bogus????

Is this really a rational arguement or the sort arguments used by casteist and hate mongers use???? Either you can remoing of caste names working or not working, how can you say its completely bogus???? that too a person passionately owns the caste name behind. Aaaaarg cmon, don't try to generate sympathy, by saying I am Iyer, that's why envirovivek is targetting me. I will traget similarly whoever argues that caste name removal is bogus logic. I won't go and condemn everyone for merely having a caste name, after all its their individual liberty. But these casteist morons who carry caste names goes out and preaches having caste names are harmless, then I have problems there...

Quote:Your assumptions about hating Dravidian/Self Respect movement are plain wrong and colored by your ideological hackery.

Its not assumption you are proving again and again... You are out here to condemn solely Non-Brahmins, because they deprived you people out of privileges. On the other hand you fail to understand that, its not only you who is condemning Non-Brahmins, everyone is condemning them, the problem with you you single out Non-Brahmins alone. I am not for singling out Brahmins or non-brahmins alone.

Quote:While I am glad for the Self-Respect movement, it is not without flaws and it seems to have vastly benefited middle castes than Dalits. That isn't an opinion, that is proven fact given all the research data and reports I presented earlier.


Its well known common sense, in public sphere of Tn and all over India, don't project it to me as if I am not aware of it. I have already in my last reply n number of times said Non-Brahmins exploiting Dalits.

The question is why you bring in all these failiures and success of the dravidian movement history as a whole when we are arguing about Significance of removing caste names objectively?

Quote:Weather removing the caste name does really brings in change or not, could not be quantified with absolute numbers to either speak in favor or against it.


Quote:Yes, it should be. Why shouldn't a tactic be evaluated for its success? Especially when you demand people give up their family names. If something doesn't work, as rationalists we find better methods rather than sticking to failed methods. Unless one isn't a rationalist and is merely an ideologue.

I think you would've gone through all my last replies thoroughly, there itslef I have clearly explained how this could be researched and what are the limitations right now. Rationally speaking I won't call yet to be researched topics as bogus... Rationalists make dispassionate arguements... Read the excerpt from my last replies which answers your above quote.

""""" There is certainly significant positive effect of removing caste names is there in TN, this hypothesis needs thorough research with advanced social research techniques. But now with this poor understanding of dynamics and variables and tools of caste bias and pride we cant quantify it absolutely. Researches are needed. But if you ask me to make qualitative assessment of significant changes arises out of shedding caste names, I would say there is significant benefit, but that’s not the complete solution. If people are decided or prejudiced to belittle a positive change they can go to any extent to argue significant one as bogus.""""



Quote:I know n number people who take huge pride in having their caste names like reddy, naidu, aiyer iyengar blah blah... Having caste names behind your name is not possible in TN because which won't be added into any of your government documents right from you Birth certificate.

Quote:Your anecdata is of no use. And it is very much possible to have caste names as last names, considering the thousands of Mudaliars, Gounders, Thevars, Pillai, Nair, etc as last names.

I am telling this out of my personal experience in schools and colleges of Tamil Nadu. I haven't come across single caste surnames of modern generation TN students in Tamil Nadu. When I say TN students, its strictly TN students, students who come from other states do retain their caste names in TN institutions, TN is not dictating terms to other state people, as you were trying to project. If mine is anecdotal yours is also anecdotal.

Quote:Yes people feel great because, for example when caste name displayed in public, there are 99% probablity a person gets an house for rent based on the caste from a caste biased person, but when caste name is not mentioned publicly, there are relatively very less chances the house owner asks the tenant about castes, just for the sake of decency.

Quote:And that doesn't happen with religious names, like "Vivek"? If the numbers are to go by, discrimination against Muslim names is far greater all over India than caste names. Not only that, religion based discrimination in general is far more prevalent than caste based discrimination. Both are proven in the sources cited in my previous response to you.

Two wrongs won't make things right. Don't bring this fake arguements again and again. I completely agree both religious and caste surnames should be avoided, since caste surname is not a given name, it is easy for every people to shed this the moment one realises the harms of retaining caste biases, when I say every, I mean every right and like minded people. I certainly do not dictate terms on others. But I certainly oppose the people who try to say Having caste names are "ultra harmless" or harmless, just because they wanna enjoy the pervert caste pride.

When it comes to religious names, they are given names, hence it would be difficult to change them completely in half way through the life. But for me personally, I am seriously looking for non-religious names from religion neutral Tamil sangam literatures ot Tamil or telugu epigraphs etc, for naming my future generations provided I reach consensus with my future partner(I should not dictate there too right).

Quote:I'd also like for you to show me *any* study that specifically documents Brahmin names being given preference in Tamil Nadu. Because from everything that I am seeing, Brahmin last names in Tamil Nadu seem to get far more derision than some extra perks. So please, back up your claims with numbers.

Why do you get so obsessed brahmins brahmins and brahmins, did I ever say brahmins alone are getting benefitted by retaining their caste surnames??? Whichever caste surname it may be, public display of surnames would lead to favoritism and nepotism and various other discriminations.

I seriously condemn you for making such statements when you are debating with me, it gives impression to others as if am targetting brahmins alone. Go read my last replies thoroughly I said n number of times Non-Brahmins mis-deeds also. Never I've Isolated brahmins to level any criticization w.r.t retaining caste names.


Quote:In your prescription, you forgot the BIGGEST one. Inter-caste marriage..

Read my replies thoroughly, including the replies I have made for other peoples too. Where I have mentioned Inter-Caste marriages. I didnt list this Intercaste marriage as a solution here, because i don't want ot compare Inter caste marriage with removal of caste names. Inter-caste marriages ranks higher and top in my list, which i make for eradicating caste system. The people who make Intercaste marriages are the wholesome contributrs to the caste free society, provided they don't stick one or the other caste syatem. Some are retaining caste names even after Inter-caste marriages for the pervert pride, in such a scenario there is no use in such sort of person getting Intercaste married, he is still a casteist. Likewise if a person removes his caste names and argues against inter-caste marriage means he is also a casteist still.

Just because a person have a caste name behind his name, one can't say he is unfit for speaking for the destruction of caste system. A caste named person can also fight for removing caste system as much as possible to his extent, but if the same caste named person wants to fight against caste system but tries to spread or preach the public that having caste name is harm less, then that is attrocious act and highly condemnable, A person retaining caste names or doing caste marriage could have been due to that persons fear for society or some other personal reasons, even such persons can do their bit to destroy caste system, but if the same people argues and preaches that, retaining caste names or doing caste marriages are not harmless to the society, kind of doll drums should severely condemned. One should be ready to take the criticisms when they make any mistakes. Beyond the criticisms from others, even the people who couldn remove caste names or do inter-caste marriage have hell lot of works to do for destroying caste system in society, provided such persons don't have ulterior motives of polluting the caste system removal job.

Quote:Yet a lot of those, in fact most people, who rant against caste based names--seldom break out of their caste and marry someone outside of it. Somehow they become scaredy cats in front of their casteist parents. ..

Yes I agree to this 100 %, 200% and 300%, I join with you to say this again and again.
You have attacked me numerous times and called me names, yet I am the one who went and married out of my caste, my race, my nationality and my religious background. Actions speak louder than words,..

Yes i agree i attacked you and called you names, sorry for that, because you don't have intellectual honesty, you are of the confidence that by making irrelevant and dry arguements we could sell the statement that removing the caste names are useless, just because you as an individual wanna enjoy the pervert caste name pride.

At the same time I respect and salute you thousand times for taking a such big step of crossing huge borders as you did. But I suspect weather you are trying to advertise your inter-marriage as a big asset and worlds biggest deed(certainly it is) so others should accept whatever you say, even if it is flawed arguement one got to accept what you say because you made Inter-marriage, that too being an Iyer(reason for displaying it). Such a gesture won't get you anywhere. Retaining caste name itself a small blot on your Inter-Marriage. (Doing caste marriage is big blot on a person who wishes to say he removed his caste name). I feel you are over tom toming your inter-marriage, I suspect, you wanna convey to the world, see even being as an Iyer I made Inter-marriage, that is the important motive you have, if it is so be it. Its your individual choice, but don't prescribe having caste names are harmless to the society. Just to achieve your personal agenda don't make such flawed and dry arguements. (For your information I never tom tomed as you are, that I removed caste names blah blah, from the beginning what am asking is don't give wrong prescription to the public, that too being as the admin of CFT.)

The very act of crime or mistake itself is not important, but the intention behind the particular act matters most. Intent of Crime, is the basis on which judgements are given. I suspect your intent of the crime which you are doing, i.e giving wrong prescription of retaining caste names which are harmless.

Quote:and in this case empty chest-thumping, useless and cumbersome gestures like changing one's last name.

Little drops of water makes mighty ocean, therefore appreciate the people who shed their caste name for the cause of eagalitarian society, let's motivate them for doing Inter-caste marriages and other bigger deeds to destruct the caste system. I too won't agree if they boast mere shedding of the caste name itself as a biggest achievement they made. such tom tomers(like inter-caste marriage tom tomers) should be shunned. We don't need tom tomers of any sort, we need inclusive motivating people, we need not annihilate anyone for not being to the rank and files of rationalists. Rationalists are not religious cult people, to have hardline fundamental rules. But the fundamental duty of rationalists is to stop distorting the true intentions of particular caste destruction tools like caste names removal or inter-caste marriages. Rationalists certainly should not be hate mongers, self sympathy manufacturers and mudslingers against particular caste or group out of their own hatred...

Quote:Name change does next to nothing, in fact it is actually deprives Dalits of having the pride to retain their caste name.

What is there to take pride in retaining their caste name, the very caste heirarchic structure itself is from perverted varnasrama dharma, manudharma.... Does Nirmukta prescribe varnasramadharma retainment???

Quote:If an oppressed group like Dalits wants to retain pride in their caste name, who are you as an upper caste person to tell that they shouldn't retain their caste based last name?
Privileged, much?

Huuuuuh!!!! Hell lot of times I said that I am not for dictating anything to anyone as a rationalist. Its the individual who take final call in retaining or loosing the caste names. I strongly condemn you for bringing this arguement to me again again to me. I had already made it clear. This is what i say you lack Intellectual honesty.

Quote:Anyhow if your above statement is true, then why you get so annoyed to shed away the system which was brought in by the imperialists to divide our society.????

[/quote]
Because it is now part of my identity. The imperialists also abolished Sati and introduced English. Are you going to give up English because it was brought in by imperialists?[/quote]

The above question was targeted towards you, hence you raising the same towards me is meaningless, I didnt bring the debate about Imperialist doing this or that... its you, who is very eager to blame imperialist for each and every thing like Hinduthvaadhins... You answer for yourself.


Quote:But according to my knowledge in epigraphy, there are enough proofs, which are inscribed in temples, quoting caste names of so and so kings or donors to the temple. So I cant believe only British brought in the system of having caste names behind. Even if Tamil chieftains were not fond of having caste names, I could see Telugu kings or caste groups who were in Tamil Nadu were fond of having the caste names as a cheap pride.

Quote: Citations please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt4T7jZDIQo&t=4m35s

This is the citation to destruct one of the biggest flawed arguement you were making that only British imperialists started writing caste names. When you argue so, by criticizing imperialists for what the blunder done by bhakthi movement people, I suspect you imbibed or have remnants of Hinduthvaadhins in you???? Is it so????

Quote:This is such an horrible argument. This is why my reply was bit harsh today morning in chennai freethinkers facebook forum. You make such flawed and rude arguement, on top of it you are dictating rules for others. When I argue you have to do away with cancer in the society, you are counter arguing with me why you didn't do away with AIDS first of all.

Quote:What you are proposing is more like combating cancer with homeopathic quackery, while completely ignoring an AIDS epidemic and suggesting that it is not a big deal.

I say both cancer and AIDS should be fought, one is not excuse for another. Both caste names and religious names should be fought. Again again you bring in religious name argument to retain caste name pride. Even after explaining so many times you bring in arguement about religious names on the way of shunning caste names as a wily arguement. You lack intellectual honesty, you arguements are more redundant. please come up with fresh thought and questions. You redundant questions begs redundant answers from which is boring. It doesnt sound constructive debate.

Quote:People who do Caste bias or religious bias they wait for none, we got to handle both of them in parallel.

Quote:Oh really? Is that why you have a Hindu name still,

Yes i still have my Hindu name according to you, because this is given name, I am removing my caste name because it is just a rotten stinky appendage of caste system. Yeah Hindu names are also stinky and rotten, but I can't help it in middle of my life.

I am very convenient in removing my caste name, what bothers you if I do that??? Why do you do irrational value judgements about acts of caste name removers???? (Hope you remember only you started that thread, with intention of questioning significance of removing caste name.)

Don't compare Apples(Given Names) and oranges(appendages-caste name).

If you are really concerned about caste system destruction, you won't underestimate or trivialise or belittle other deeds of removing caste names as stage managed show. Even if it is insignificant according to you you won't try to distort the intention of this practise of caste name removal by making flawed apple:orange comparisons.


Quote: while ranting on and being ridiculously rude to someone with a caste based last name?

this might be your experience with others, for me individuals having caste name is not a problem its their individual choice. A debate may arise about the caste name, but certainly it can't be rude, I have explained why I interfered into your issue, since you are supporting caste names as if its harmless...

[/quote] I don't see you screaming hoarse over Hindu names and changing your own Hindu name. .
Quote:

Personally for me, I am motivating people to have non-religious Tamil sangam literature names.


Quote: I am already searching for Good non-religious names from Tamil Sangam Literatures. So therefore we need change in both.


Quote:
You realize that all Tamil literary names would still be Hindu and not Muslim or Christian, right?.


Do you know what are u talking??? Do you know Tamil language first of all??? What is your academic skills inTamil first of all??? Do you think Tamil Language is like sanskrit(religious language?)???

Do you know there was an european Tamil poet in Tamil Nadu during 17th or 18th centuary whose tamil name is Veeramaamunivar and his real name is constantinople something...

There was another name called umarupulavar, which was the name of Muslim poet.

Stop making conclusive statments when you dont know particular field.

Quote:
That's called having Hindu privilege, which you aren't even aware of. You think having the name Tamizhmozhi would make someone think you are a Muslim?
I've got news for you--No.


If Tamizhmozhi is not non-religious name??, then what is non-religious name???

Quote:Removing caste names could be the foundation for an eagalitarian society, it’s certainly not complete cure. Religious meaning names are given names, which are given by ones parents from childhood. Therefore you can’t compare the given names and caste names equally when it comes to removing of names. I hope you will at least now on stop giving this as an excuse for retaining caste names. Both the evils should be eradicated, even if I couldn’t eradicate I won’t argue that there is no evil in the ill-deed which am doing by having caste name.
Ah, so removing one's last name is easy because you say so--but removing one's first name is conveniently difficult? Hypocrisy much? .[/quote]

Its not hypocrisy, its lack of basic knowledge in you to differentiate between given name and caste name. If you really dedicated to solving problems associated with caste system, stop making these apple and ornage comparision... stop trivialising both the topic making improper unfit comparison for your personal interest of retaining caste names.

Quote:Just because you come from a culture where no one uses last name does not mean that applies to all cultures,.

If you are really honest in these debates show me a single proof that am advocating this to all cultures and all tamilians for that matter???? Stop this vulgur distortion of facts. I seriously condemn this...

Quote:Ah, so removing one's last name is easy because you say so--but removing one's first name is conveniently difficult? Hypocrisy much? Just because you come from a culture where no one uses last name does not mean that applies to all cultures, especially not to those who live in other parts of India or other parts of world where having a last name is a must and where last name is just as important of an identifier as first name.
Do you ask your Swedish friends to remove their Swedish last names so that Sami an other indigenous people don't get discriminate against for having distinctly non-Swedish last names?

I highly doubt it

You are horrible, you are raising irrelavent questions towards me, You are really a Intellectual hitman... Have the skills of distorted projection of opposite persons views.... great... you are gift for this rationalists society...

And I wonder how do you know my geographical location????

Quote:If you ask me personally I have enough zeal for doing away with these religious names. If you really need proof for my zeal, I would be ready to give you from my e-mail archives of my communication with Tamil and Telugu linguists. Do you need it???

Quote:The proof I need is you officially changing your name from Vivek to something Muslim or something completely unidentifiable to anyone as a religious name. Show me newspaper ads where you officially change your name, and then I'll take your claims of being above religious privileges seriously.

First of all this debate about religious names are un called for in this debate where we are discussing perverted caste pride names. Stop comparing apples and oranges. Given names are different from caste name appendages. you got it???

I don't have any Idea of changing my given name. I am searching non-sanskritic, non-religious, Tamil sangam literature based names for next generation young childrens.

Quote:And don't imagine too much I will never get bothered if you start targeting Non-brahmins, if they use their caste names in inhumane way. I have come accross many of such sorts like reddy's naidu's, Naikars, Nadars many times.



Quote:In CFT alone, there are plenty of non-Brahmins with caste names. Why do I not see you or anyone else getting into such tizzy and attacking those folks?

Go and check when did I joined CFT??? Just couple of days back I joined, I just gave a glance into CFT three day after I joined the group... Where I saw you started a thread, with the motive of belittling caste name removal practise for your personal satisfaction. that too comparision with irrelavant religious names. Which was very funny horrible to see, so I gave a fit reply to your Intellectual hitman nature. But you removed me undemocratically from the forum, since you would get embarassed over there to argue with me. If you dare again get me back into that forum...

And for me there is no any need to go and attack unknown people who are having pervert caste pride names. I started arguing with you because volountarily started debate on you name itself. That too you were justifying and prescribing it for others. Thats why I had to reply to. If you would have not started that thread your caste names are immaterial for me.

Quote:I am sorry, but I call bunkum on this claim that this is for any caste names. It seems it is very specific to Brahmin caste names--even though it seems the biggest and main culprits perpetuating caste system in both individual cases and institutional power are non-Brahmins.

How many times do I need to openly say that I don't descriminate Brahmins and Non-Brahmins... If you are out for exposing your hatred towards non-brahmins then am not fall guy for that... Don't blame me as if am anti-Brahmin caste names alone... I have experience of fighting with people having caste names in family circles itself...
Reply
#26
Before I start replying I level a charge against So called Gayathri Iyer, is out here to distort the meanings of the arguements which I've made, to her last communication. She misquotes my arguements and gives irrelavent replies. I wish someone seriously moderates the arguements between me and Gayathri. Please people find how far she is out there to distort my words, by reading between the lines. This is not the healthy way to go ahead for Rationalists debate forum.

Note for Gayathri: Stop replying without going through the whole post. You are making irrelavent comments and raising questions, for which I have already replied in the last reply itself. Please continue the debate for constructive sharing of knowledge and Ideas, stop distorting my words, I asked for proofs from you for several charges which you made against me…
Quote:Yes am proposing, not dictating.


Quote:And you are wrong. You as an upper caste person don't get to dictate to oppressed castes what they should or should not be named.

Show me single proof of statement where i said I will dictate, don't cook up stories, Ms. Intellectual Hitman... Just leave the topic if don't have genuine arguements to say....

Quote: You said earlier that you'd attack anyone with caste based last name--would you attack Dalits because they choose to keep their last names?

Come out of your hallucination immediately please. You are killing me by distorting my words. Give me single proof, saying I said soo from my replies.

Quote: Modern generation of Tamil Nadu is beyond the caste surnames, which is out of fashion from their birth certificate through schooldays. Many people who retain caste name in TN is either pro-hinduthva or anti-self respect movement

If you had read some of the links I had posted, you wouldn't be saying this because your statements simply clash with the facts presented in them. Many middle castes still retain their last names. Also, using your logic that Tamil Nadu is beyond caste names--why hasn't casteism vanished? Actually, screw vanishing--why has casteism increased so much and has gotten far more violent than it was in the 1950s and 1960s? Since the 1980s, Tamil Nadu has seen a significant rise in caste violence, particularly towards Dalits. It has shown no indication of slowing down or even stabilizing.

All these are spam comments, Did i say Modern tamil nadu is beyond caste system??? I just said its beyond caste surnames, please read it properly. I don't say what you posted above are not true, but that reply is irrelevant to the anecdote which i have given. Caste name removal alone won't solve all the problems, but it too does solve some problems...

Quote:Yes the superficial research from the internet only result in these kind flawed and arrogant arguments. One got to have exposed to the field realities to know the dynamics. I will bring out flaws in your arguement point by point.

This is such nonsense. I don't need to live in India to know that Dalits are oppressed. How is your logic any different from some Hindutva crazy who tells me that unless I live in India, I cannot say that Hindus don't oppress Muslims?

Did I say middle castes are not oppressing the Dalits??? Reply me ???? Don't read inbetween the lines to get your say passed upon me... Have some debate ethics.... You are killing my time by not having basic ethics... No problem even if you sit in moon, but its necessary you should shed your caste pride and prejudices against Tamil people as such.


Quote:You are saying, that you had gone through all these books, do show me a single statistical proof which says removing caste named didnt or did benefitted Tamil Nadu community.


Quote: That's called proving a negative and is a logical fallacy. For you to demand that people change their last names to remove caste, the burden of proof is upon you to show research proving a beneficial effect.



So you mean the links which you have placed as a citation didnt say anything about Caste name removal right???? Then why did you bring those irrelavant links over here??? Are we debating the oppression by Middle castes or the Topic "Caste Name removal" Why do you bring irrelavant citations, for the sake of keeping citations, this is called junk debate... If you really want to debate oppressions by middle-castes, am ready for that. In fact there is no point of debating that topic at all , because I accept and I know these facts as a common sense. In fact I am associated with the organisations which are fifhting these brutality. There is no need for disputing the claims by those articles...

Quote: Don't get your eyes dim by the hatred you have towards a Kannadiga/Telugu Periyar's self-respect movement in Tamil Nadu. Don't make use of that hatred to distort the image of TN and TN people. Why do some people who hate non-Tamil periyar is hating Tamil community too and bringing bad name to Tamil people and TN.

Quote:Right! All those studies and reports are fabricated. UNHCR, HRW, Amnesty International, various Dalit Rights groups, various Dalit academics, etc all are just spewing lies to defame Tamild Nadu and Tamil people. You know, Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
Face the reality and dispute anything cited by showing what's factually wrong. Prove it with credible citations. Empty declarations are useless.


Don't read between the lines and don't make cheap statements against me...

Are we debating the oppression by Middle castes or the Topic "Caste Name removal" Why do you bring irrelavant citations, for the sake of keeping citations, this is called junk debate... If you really want to debate oppressions by middle-castes, am ready for that. In fact there is not point of debating that topic at all , because I accept and I know these facts as a common sense. There is no need for disputing the claims by those articles...



Quote: But what is the point in bringing these proofs for the argument about the benefits of removing caste names. Caste system is carried from one generation to another generation in a multidynamic way. Among the multidynamics removing caste names is removal of single cause for discrimination. When this single cause i.e caste name is absent, people make use of other pro-caste bias tools to apply the oppressed caste discrimination. There is no single pill or solution for multidimensional casteist mentality. We need integrated social engineering. If that is the case what is the need for Periyar and Ambedkar to fight for the proportional representation, which was rejected by then upper caste leaders.

Quote:Do you realize the irony here, that Ambedkar's own last name was a Brahmin one, given to him by his mentor? Are you going to condemn Ambedkar for keeping a Brahmin last name now, since you think caste names are so very horrible?

You escape very brilliantly without answering my question above??? Try replying to the question... Why do you bring irrelevant citations to compare with mere caste name removal. answer this without failing... stop bringing such arguements as well as citations, those not news for me. You can find some other person to sell your loaded news about TN beyond the objective of discussion...

Yes horrible, Its Ambedkar's individual's wish he accepted, the surname of his kind and respectful teacher. But caste names are horrible. I need not condemn it as i am not condemning you for having caste name, but I am condemn those who prescribe caste name is harmless. show me that Ambedkar said caste names are harmless, then I will condemn him.

Quote:You yourself admit that this is multidimensional, in that case--do you condemn those who marry within their caste the way you condemn people with caste based last name?
I don't think so. Hypocrisy at its finest.

You are asking me to admit?, its you who was not aware of the multidimensionality of caste system and thinking the world is flat, you were arguing by comparing oranges and apples blah blah... When I give explanation question me back as if you are questioning something new to me...

Why should I condemn a person for having caste names, or a person not doing inter-caste marriage, may be I will have just a debate with them, but I would surely condemn a person who advocates that "Having caste names are harmless" or "Inter-caste marriages are not good"

Quote:How does this quotation proves shunning caste names are bogus??? Yes Justice party didn’t had as many dalits, which doesn’t mean Shunning caste names doesn’t work. It was just in its formative years, even then its condemnable for not having proper representation all non-brahmin communities.


Quote:Don't be purposely obtuse. I posted it to show that Self-Respect movement within itself excluded Dalits and others based on caste. It was a movement that helped with caste, but by no means was it perfect the way many of its supporters claimed it to be. And just as much, the solutions proposed such as removal of caste name but not caste-intermarriage or removal of religious names--were cosmetic and did little to lessen caste discrimination against Dalits.

How does the issue of Justice party shunning the dalits from becoming memebers of Justice party is related our debate???? Whatever it may be, I have already said I too condemn for not having proper representation of dalits... But why did you post the reply again about irrelevant issue??? On the other hand India's first Constitutional Amendment was brought in by Periyar, that is communal GO.

Women's Rights

Periyar was a champion of women's rights. In several Self-Respect Conferences, which he organized in Tamil Nadu, Periyar advocated man-woman equality, and equal property rights for women. Among other things, he encouraged and supported inter-caste marriages and widow-remarriages. Periyar popularized Self-Respect Marriages by mutual consent, which were conducted without any Brahmin priest or religious ritual.

Periyar also supported the abolition of the Devadasi system under which young girls were attached to Hindu temples as sex workers. Periyar described this system as a disgrace to Hindu religion.


Acts of Self Respecters for Dalit upliftment
One could write a thesis on Periyar’s work about Dalits. He struggled all his life for abolition of caste, which according to him will be achieved, by “abolition of God, Religion (Hinduism), the Shastras and the Brahmins”. He and his Self-Respecters never got tired of repeating that untouchability and caste differentiations were root cause of Indian slavery and always declared that it was not enough that OBCs rebelled against Brahmins but they had to abandon untouchability and treat them as equals. They always struggled for OBC - Dalit unity.
One incident is worth mentioning. At some place he was addressing OBCs and advocating unity with Dalits. One of his listeners complained that people had come there to hear about Brahmin tyranny and not to hear about love for Adi-Dravidas. Periyar’s curt reply was that, to show love towards a Pariah is the real method of opposing brahmin tyranny.
They believed in proportional representation of all castes in positions of power, services, legislature and education. In a caste bound society they worked for socialism and gave in ‘Samadharma’ a non-brahmin alternative on cultural basis. Periyar denounced the ‘separate’ facilities like wells for Dalits. They had adi-dravida concerns in mind while opposing Gandhi, or “Poona Pact” or Harijan Sewak Sangha or Christian clergy observing untouchability against Christian Dalits. They gave more importance to schooling and drinking water for Dalits than ‘salt satyagraha’ of Gandhi.

I again Ask you weather we debate Significan Caste Name removal or Self-Respect Movement??? Stop diverting the topic out of your hatred towards Non-Brahmins and Periyar... Therefore you need not reply hereafter for your favourite justice party bashing, which is already redundant.... Just stic to our topic of discussion...

Quote:On many instances, Periyar expressed disgust at non-Brahmins orthodoxy towards adi-dravidas and remarked that non-brahmins are more orthodox than the brahmins.
Quote:That's wonderful and all, but last I checked Periyar isn't the end all be all of the Self-Respect movement.

Its you who tartgeted him, moreover its you always diverting from the topic of discussion since you don't have solid arguments to make....



Quote:Don’t be conclusive when you don’t have access to ground reality... Always fight is between relatively equal economic statused BC’s and SC’s.


[/quote]
I think I'll trust Dalit researchers, Human rights groups, UNHRC, various news reports and government reports over some anecdotal evidence that you claim to have. Your claim is patently false. [/quote]

Neither am disputing those articles, its you distorting and manipulating facts said in those articles to prove that its all because of removing caste names...

Quote:Whatever it may be, what do all these got to do with shunning the caste names??? You can’t bring all these as excuse for not being able to shun the caste name. Flawed, Flawed argument. Please understand the dynamics of Caste system.

Quote:I am understanding the dynamics and that is why I call shenanigans on this cosmetic gesture. If people spent half as much time promoting intercaste marriage and anti-caste discrimination by institutional powers as they do chest thumping against Brahmin last names, the state would have far less caste issues.

Do you intend to say in tamil nadu Inter caste marriages are not happening because of caste name removal, or do you mean to say efforts for inter-caste marriages are not at all happening??? If so what are the proofs you have???

People should spend time for all. Removal of caste names as well as encouragement of Inter-Caste Marriages. Just because you want to retain you cast pride pervert name, you cant advocate it to the world, that it serves no purpose. Stop giving single pill prescription, get going for the integrated and multidimensional approach.



Quote:When I say TN ranks first in affirmative it means that TN has 69% reservation, which benefits all, Daltis, BC and OBC's. No other state have such affirmative action, even have rural quotas for medical admissions and engineering admissions.


Quote:Which again benefits powerful middle castes like Thevars, Chettiyars, Gounders, Nadars who are classified as OBC or BC. They should be deemed upper caste given the collective amount of wealth and political clout they have, almost certainly surpassing the Brahmins in Tamil Nadu.


Citation??????
Show me a single sect of Reddiars, Nadars, Naidu's, Mudhaliars, who are wealthy but still enjoying affirmative policies????? Utter baseless allegations..... Shed your prejudice and hatred towards the affirmative actions brought in by mandal commission.... I could see the same attitude of anti-reservation people in you. Get your facts correct.

To be factual, I myself belong middle level caste name say x. In the same caste there are certain sub-groups are also there... Only really deprived subgroup people are getting reservation, people like us, who belong to landlord subgroup are not coming under mandal commission... similar is the situation for all the middle castes. Don't speak without knowing ground level facts....

Quote:Disloyal politicians like Karunanidhi, MGR , Jeaylalitha ruined the state. They are non-Tamils, they are exploiting the Caste divides.


Quote:o_O
Why aren't they Tamil? Why are you being so xenophobic and nativist? So I am not an American, because I was born in India? Is that your logic? Do you realize you sound like those Hindutvadis who claim Sonia and Rahul Gandhi aren't Indian because they are white?

Tamils do exploit caste divides. Don't blame non-Tamils.

Come on !!!! may you have little bit intelligence... I myself Non-Tamil, Telugu community. I am self criticizing telugus for using their landlord status they are occupying the very important key positions in the TN politics and are exploiting the caste divide. I am self-criticizing, is it Hinduthvaadhin style???

Quote:But I have another statistics for attitudes of General category students and Teachers over SC-ST. It may be attributable to lack of caste surnames too.
http://planningcommission.nic.in/reports...y_cpss.pdf

Quote:First of all, prove the last name correlation with data--don't just make some hypothesis without proof to back it up. Next, the question asks general category student if they feel the faculty favors SC/ST students. It means nothing because it is the opinion of SC/ST students that counts in terms of how they are treated. .

Right now I don't Have that... Will wait untill I get...

Quote:"Caste is a notion, it is a state of the mind. The destruction of Caste does not therefore mean the destruction of a physical barrier. It means a notional change." (Dr.Ambedkar)...Please get to learn more about caste systems and how people behave, just because you want defend you behavior of having caste name don’t make dry arguments. See what does Dr.Ambedkar says.
.[/quote]Do you get the irony that you are quoting someone with a Brahmin last name?.[/quote]

Aaaaah!!!! What a ground breaking irony.... I will be happpy atleast if you would have learnt the multidimensionality of caste system...

Quote:Or you suggest me single solution which ends off the caste system completely, since you always asking single pill remedy for deep rooted disease.


Quote:Inter-caste and inter-religious marriages, challenging casteism when one sees it from one's family, friends, acquaintances. Supporting public policy that helps give opportunity and try to level the playing field for oppressed groups. Accepting and acknowledging that those of us born in upper/middle caste families have caste privilege. .

I asked Single pill solution as you are asking for Caste name removal effect and significance.... What you gave is multidimensional solution or integrated appraoch, which is what I was telling. Using the single pill arguement may be useful for the hypocrites to belittle the significant tools of change, but certainly they cant propose solution on their own tooo...

Quote:These are propaganda by certain group of immature upper caste people, who hate Periyar’s self-respect movement to the core, keep doll drumming this prejudice all over India, including the congress governments well known left Ideologist, Manishankar MP.


[/quote]You can call it propaganda all you wish (and I don't much care for Manishankar Aiyer), but it seems to me that the only places where a Brahmin name can benefit someone in Tamil Nadu is in Tam-Bram neighborhoods, of which there are far and few in between. I doubt anyone with the last name Iyer or Iyengar would somehow climb the political ladder in Tamil Nadu--heck, even Amma has kept her Hebbar Iyengar last name out.[/quote]

On the contrary, Show me one politician who climbed the political ladder in TN as CM using caste surname???

Irony is, eventhough she is Hebbar Iyengar, People of Tamil Nadu accepted as CM for many times. Upon such people you are complaining they are dead against Brahmins...

Stop getting self-satisfaction from self-sympathy and stop hating TN and Tamil Nadu people.... and stop building a wedge between different caste groups.... You must eligible first to advice others... You are showing you true colours of casteist, and opposer of affirmative action by mandal commission etc...

Quote:So stop spreading ill opinion about TN and its people. So far TN is not ruled by a Tamilian. Some crooked Non-Tamils are ruling repeatedly, who are exploiting the caste divides for their vote bank politics.
Quote: I agree Dravidian parties actually exploited the caste divide, because the non-tamil Dravidian party leaders were very keen to retain their power than retaining their Ideology.

.
Quote:LOL, right. Blame it on non-Tamils. Please, plenty of Tamil leaders were guilty of this as well. In one of the papers cited, it showed how Nadars benefited disproportionately under Kamaraj's political era. The Tamil people on the whole, just as most fellow Indians--are casteist. Accept that fact and deal with it. And last I checked, Karunanidhi is very much a Tamilian, thank you very much. .

Its the headache of Tamils... Good or bad, let that be the dynamics amidst Tamils, why should Non-Tamil Landlords dictate TN politics??? I didnt say Tamil people are special than fellow Indian when it comes caste system as whole. But I do say there is significant reduction in Caste NAme based biases.

Quote:Its unbelievable you bring in all the prejudices you have against Periyar’s self-respect movement to defend your act of retaining your caste and prescribing having caste name is harmless for others too. Read the following and shed your prejudices.

.
Quote:Do you know what a strawman fallacy is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
That is exactly what you are engaging in.


See who says what??? YOu are the best distortionists ever i come accross, Lack Intellectual honesty, You make twists and turns, dared not to give straight answers for anything, when you couldn manage, you compare appples and oranges... Funny part you are admin of Chennai Free Thinkers forum, that too with this much amount of prejudices and hatred against Tamil community...
Reply
#27
envirovivek, No name calling please! If you want others to have rational discussion, without ad-hominems, lead by example.

Coming back to the main discussion. Let me try to explain the objections to the approach that you are proposing in a different way.
Consider a hypothetical case that Humans with long hair were discriminated for several centuries by humans with short hair. And after a battle society realizes that this was injustice. Now how do you go about improving the social condition? By having people with long hair cut their hair? Because that way nobody has different hair so the question of discrimination doesn't remain any more.

But thats a cosmetic fix. Why was there any discrimination to begin with. And that needs to be tackled. The fix to above problem is not for everybody to have same hair, but to realize the fact that people might have different hair and still leave peacefully without any discrimination.
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#28
(11-Oct-2012, 12:42 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: envirovivek, No name calling please! If you want others to have rational discussion, without ad-hominems, lead by example.

Coming back to the main discussion. Let me try to explain the objections to the approach that you are proposing in a different way.
Consider a hypothetical case that Humans with long hair were discriminated for several centuries by humans with short hair. And after a battle society realizes that this was injustice. Now how do you go about improving the social condition? By having people with long hair cut their hair? Because that way nobody has different hair so the question of discrimination doesn't remain any more.

But thats a cosmetic fix. Why was there any discrimination to begin with. And that needs to be tackled. The fix to above problem is not for everybody to have same hair, but to realize the fact that people might have different hair and still leave peacefully without any discrimination.

Dear Kanad, I agree no name calling is acceptable. But what shall i do if a person repeatedly distorts what I say and repeatedly raises a same charges against me that am concerned only about IYer and IYengar, even after I made it clear, I am condemning everyone equally. And many more distortions of my arguement. Am also eager to see a healthy debate from her.

I am sorry, the analogy with hair you had given is not convincing, how hair going to be used as a tool of discrimination or to do favouritism. Whatever it is, the anology which you gave doesnt suit the hierarchy of the varnasrama dharma. Any lone solution for a complex problem would loook like cosmetic fix. Thats why am repeatedly saying, integrated and multidimensional solutions are needed. Removing caste names wont work as one stop solution for whole caste system, whose effectiveness in single is significant enough for caste name associated problems, but combining it with other affirmative policies and inter-caste marriages would increase the efficiency and benefits.

Quote:but to realize the fact that people might have different hair and still leave peacefully without any discrimination.

I guess such a scenario is not possible in near future. There are certain significant percentage of people who uses caste names out there in society are still using it for the caste pride display.

Moreover what is the pain and need for someone to criticize the tamil community, by cornering them and asking you removed caste name, but why you still have caste based violence, blah blah... Arguing as if world is flat is not rational arguement. Let Tamil Nadu be in its way, which had already adapted to it. None needs to dictate anyone else. Let the individuals make choices. Value judgements about the effectiveness of such caste name removal tools, should be done in a rationale way, in dispassionate way, not by bashing it up saying bogus logic. What is the meaning of bogus, doesn't it sound as if a group of anti-social elements sat together and planned for cheating the society??

We have enough problems in the society to discuss for. We can discuss how eefectively the social engineering can work in future. Instead of spending time for hate mongering on scheme of social changes implemented by a movement.

Thank you...
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#29
[I wish moderator says something about her tactic of distorting the details which I had mentioned in my last reply... And her replies are not relevant and provocative. I have clearly explained how she is resorting to Hate speeches against particular group of people.

I am amused to see moderator didn't say single word about it.

Anyhow am editing my content. even after editing if moderator finds anything objectionable can Idicate it to me specificly, so that I will remove them without fail by tomorrow evening.

Thank you....
Reply
#30
(11-Oct-2012, 01:44 AM)envirovivek Wrote: I am sorry, the analogy with hair you had given is not convincing, how hair going to be used as a tool of discrimination or to do favouritism. Whatever it is, the anology which you gave doesnt suit the hierarchy of the varnasrama dharma.

That example wasn't meant to be "real" (it was hypothetical). But that doesn't defeat the merit of the argument. Varna system was equally idiotic in logic. But it ended up being huge discriminatory factor.


(11-Oct-2012, 01:44 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Any lone solution for a complex problem would loook like cosmetic fix. Thats why am repeatedly saying, integrated and multidimensional solutions are needed. Removing caste names wont work as one stop solution for whole caste system, whose effectiveness in single is significant enough for caste name associated problems, but combining it with other affirmative policies and inter-caste marriages would increase the efficiency and benefits.

Nobody is objecting to the fact that solutions on multiple fronts are required. What I am trying to make you realize is that changing caste name is not really a solution. It is just a "workaround" at best, not a fix. Again I will encourage you to consider the hair example. Or if you want a real world problem then racism could be another example. The solution to racism isn't for dark skin colored people to start using fairness cream (presuming they work) or for fair skin colored people to get tanned. Its for the society to realize that discrimination cannot be justified on such stupid concepts.

(11-Oct-2012, 01:44 AM)envirovivek Wrote:
Quote:but to realize the fact that people might have different hair and still leave peacefully without any discrimination.

I guess such a scenario is not possible in near future. There are certain significant percentage of people who uses caste names out there in society are still using it for the caste pride display.

And this is where the efficacy of dropping caste names seem to be dim (bolstered by a case study already mentioned). Until and unless the inherent mentality is challenged, people will keep finding innovative ways to discriminate. You drop names, they'll find accent. You drop accent, they'll find something else. And that is the whole point. The problem is mentality and that needs to be addressed.
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#31
I haven't gone through the entire discussion, but this caught my eye:

(10-Oct-2012, 11:59 PM)envirovivek Wrote: You are showing you true colours of casteist, and opposer of affirmative action by mandal commission etc...

I know that Gayaisbrown has strongly supported affirmative action many times in the past. Given that, I'm very inclined to believe that you are prejudiced against her just because of her last name. As such I find it hard to take your accusations seriously.

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#32
(11-Oct-2012, 02:29 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: Until and unless the inherent mentality is challenged, people will keep finding innovative ways to discriminate. You drop names, they'll find accent. You drop accent, they'll find something else. And that is the whole point. The problem is mentality and that needs to be addressed.

I completely agree with this view. Removing the caste name is an empty gesture like putting lipstick on a pig.

I recently heard a similar discussion on Up with Chris Hayes on (10/07/2012), where a couple of immigration activists were making a case for stopping the usage of the term "Illegal immigrant" to describe those with out valid immigration papers because of the negative connotation associated with the term. They want to replace it with a neutral term "undocumented worker". One of the guests on the show then points out that as soon as you change the term the new term will soon acquire the same negative connotation. He gives the example of how the offensive term "imbecile" was first replaced by the then neutral term "retarded". But then the term "retarded" became offensive and had to be replaced by the term "special needs". Unless the underlying problem is addressed such cosmetic name changes is not going to improve the situation one bit.

Reply
#33
(11-Oct-2012, 05:23 AM)Lije Wrote: I haven't gone through the entire discussion, but this caught my eye:

(10-Oct-2012, 11:59 PM)envirovivek Wrote: You are showing you true colours of casteist, and opposer of affirmative action by mandal commission etc...

I know that Gayaisbrown has strongly supported affirmative action many times in the past. Given that, I'm very inclined to believe that you are prejudiced against her just because of her last name. As such I find it hard to take your accusations seriously.

Yeah may be I am prejudiced about her from the Facebook forum... Because some of her arguements are flawed. I tried argueing with her, but she never gives straight reply... makes twists un turns, goes out of topic to divert the issues.

Since you are telling I will remove that comment...

Thank you for intervening and correcting me...
Reply
#34
Quote:Before I start replying I level a charge against So called Gayathri Iyer
,

So called? I *am* Gayathri Iyer.

Quote:I wish someone seriously moderates the arguements between me and Gayathri. Please people find how far she is out there to distort my words, by reading between the lines. This is not the healthy way to go ahead for Rationalists debate forum..Note for Gayathri: Stop replying without going through the whole post.

I addressed everything point by point, even though you were often repetitive and redundant--and even though it took half an hour to research and reply.

Quote:Oh cmon, what kind of reply is this, you repeating what i've said, simply in other words. Please don't make dry arguements, come up with solid points.

It debunks your claim of caste name removal resulting in less caste privilege. Most of caste privilege--almost all of it actually, has precious little to do with last names.


Quote:Cmon why you single out Non-brahmins alone???? Aren't you casteist here??? Casteist are there in all spheres. Not only non-Brahmins or Brahmins. Do show me a single arguement in which I sounded casteist like you.... Quote without distorting what i've said.

More nonsensical ad hominem. You've yet to prove how I am a casteist, solely because of my last name.

Quote:Citation please, How do you say they do often. How you are singling out Tamil Nadu alone???? What is the need for you to say often in TN, did I ever said anywhere Tamil nadu teachers never harass SC-ST students????

I gave you report that included teachers in TN making Dalit children sit behind, making them clean toilets, failing students, etc. Did you read any of the links given at all? I am focussing on Tamil Nadu because you keep debating about Tamil Nadu.

Quote: Is this arguement of yours is not out of your hatred for Tamil nadu????

Unfounded ad hominem. Stating a reported and observe form of discrimination doesn't amount to hating a state. If that were the case, I must hate India, America and humanity in general because I state unpleasant facts.

Quote:Is this really a rational arguement or the sort arguments used by casteist and hate mongers use???? Either you can remoing of caste names working or not working, how can you say its completely bogus???? that too a person passionately owns the caste name behind. Aaaaarg cmon, don't try to generate sympathy, by saying I am Iyer, that's why envirovivek is targetting me. I will traget similarly whoever argues that caste name removal is bogus logic.


There's one more person here with his caste based last name who has argued the same with you. I don't see you getting in a huff with him the way you have with me.

Quote:Its not assumption you are proving again and again... You are out here to condemn solely Non-Brahmins, because they deprived you people out of privileges.

What privileges was I denied? o_O
I never even lived in Tamil Nadu.
And "you people"? Seriously? That alone deserves a banhammer.


Quote:The question is why you bring in all these failiures and success of the dravidian movement history as a whole when we are arguing about Significance of removing caste names objectively?

Because you keep bringing it up as a panacea that should be applicable all over the world to anyone of Indian/Hindu background--and when this approach hasn't worked at all even where it started from.


Quote:Rationally speaking I won't call yet to be researched topics as bogus... Rationalists make dispassionate arguements... Read the excerpt from my last replies which answers your above quote.

If you don't have the proof for it, don't expect others to buy your ideology. This is like theists demanding we believe in God, despite them having no proof for it. I am not going to change my name based on what you think will be helpful, give me helpful data to prove that how a person living in the west changing their name can lead to lessening of casteism in India


Quote:When I say TN students, its strictly TN students, students who come from other states do retain their caste names in TN institutions, TN is not dictating terms to other state people, as you were trying to project. If mine is anecdotal yours is also anecdotal.

I debunked you anecdotal claims with my anecdotal claims--that's why I demand some form of study or citation. As for not imposing this on out of staters, why then are you imposing it on an American-Indian who was born and raised in Gujarat?

Quote:Two wrongs won't make things right. Don't bring this fake arguements again and again. I completely agree both religious and caste surnames should be avoided, since caste surname is not a given name

You keep saying that except your actions don't show that. You have attacked me for retaining my last name--but you haven't even changed your Hindu name. If you seriously think religious names are as bad as caste names, why haven't you done that while demanding I shed mine?

Quote:Why do you get so obsessed brahmins brahmins and brahmins, did I ever say brahmins alone are getting benefitted by retaining their caste surnames??? Whichever caste surname it may be, public display of surnames would lead to favoritism and nepotism and various other discriminations.

Erm, you made several examples of how "my people" don't like losing benefits, how "my people" can get homes easier, jobs easier, etc. Who are these "my people" that you keep referring to? It doesn't take much to realize you are talking specifically about Iyer/Iyengars.

Quote:Just because a person have a caste name behind his name...provided such persons don't have ulterior motives of polluting the caste system removal job.

Your thinly veiled accusation that I am a casteist despite engaged in anti-caste activism andin inter-caste marriage, all because I think changing last names is cosmetic and futile--is illogical. It simply doesn't add up.

Quote:Yes I agree to this 100 %, 200% and 300%, I join with you to say this again and again.

I don't want you to join me. I want you to have the same level of anger, bitterness and hostility that you show towards me for my last name. You don't, which exposes the hollowness of this whole caste name approach.


Quote:Yes i agree i attacked you and called you names, sorry for that, because you don't have intellectual honesty, you are of the confidence that by making irrelevant and dry arguements

Unlike you, I cited reports and studies and tried documenting all my claims. You've failed to provide the burden of proof on multiple counts. I also didn't attack you personally, but merely pointed out your own ideological flaws and the various fallacies you rely on to support your stance.

Quote:Retaining caste name itself a small blot on your Inter-Marriage. (Doing caste marriage is big blot on a person who wishes to say he removed his caste name). I feel you are over tom toming your inter-marriage, I suspect, you wanna convey to the world, see even being as an Iyer I made Inter-marriage, that is the important motive you have, if it is so be it.


No, it is not a "blot" on my marriage. I want to show how inane it is to call someone who breaks caste barrier and puts her money where mouth is as a casteist, when you don't show even an ounce of similar antagonism towards those who strengthen the caste system.

Quote:. I suspect your intent of the crime which you are doing, i.e giving wrong prescription of retaining caste names which are harmless.

Oh, so thinking that removing caste names is a pointless endeavor is a "crime" now?
:Face Palm:

Quote:Little drops of water makes mighty ocean, therefore appreciate the people who shed their caste name for the cause of eagalitarian society

Show me proof, I've asked you this a thousand times. Give me studies that show removing caste last name removes discrimination. If you can't prove it, concede that it is merely an ideological window dressing.

Quote:What is there to take pride in retaining their caste name, the very caste heirarchic structure itself is from perverted varnasrama dharma, manudharma.... Does Nirmukta prescribe varnasramadharma retainment???... Its the individual who take final call in retaining or loosing the caste names. I strongly condemn you for bringing this arguement to me again again to me.

If it is an individual's choice, then why in the world are you spending so much time beating your chest about how I should abandon my last name? That isn't giving someone a choice. That is hounding someone into doing what you want them to do. And no, you don't have the right to dictate to Dalits or any oppressed groups how they should identify. So yes, I'd consider you a privileged upper caste person who thinks he knows he can tell what Dalits to do with their last names.

Quote:The above question was targeted towards you, hence you raising the same towards me is meaningless, I didnt bring the debate about Imperialist doing this or that... its you, who is very eager to blame imperialist for each and every thing like Hinduthvaadhins... You answer for yourself.

Do you have amnesia? You were the one who brought up this whole British imperialism thing. Lovely, now I get called a Hindutvad too because I have Iyer as my last name.


Quote: Citations please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt4T7jZDIQo&t=4m35s

Really, a youtube video? Give me a scholarly citation. Youtube videos don't count. And I specifically asked where the caste names were used as last names. Not whether caste existed or not. Nice try at goal post shifting, but fail.

Quote:Yes i still have my Hindu name according to you, because this is given name

Why is given name any different from last name? So if my give name was Iyer, it would be fine? o_O

Quote:Do you know what are u talking??? Do you know Tamil language first of all??? What is your academic skills inTamil first of all??? Do you think Tamil Language is like sanskrit(religious language?)???

If I have a name like Nila Tamizhmozhi, do you think someone is going to think said person is a Muslim?

Quote:then what is non-religious name???

That's the point, almost all names in some way or other come with burdens of privilege. It is impossible. If I named my daughter Quinn Brown, that name would still come with baggage--people would think she is Christian, westerner and white. And she'd get privileges associated with all those markers, which I assure you is far greater than the name Gayathri Iyer in western or Indian society. Yet I doubt any of you anti-caste last namers will find that name objectionable.

Quote:If you are really honest in these debates show me a single proof that am advocating this to all cultures and all tamilians for that matter???? Stop this vulgur distortion of facts. I seriously condemn this...

Erm, how many times have I repeated now that I don't live in Tamil Nadu/India? Yet how long have you been arguing with me about this and calling all sorts of names?


Finally, you got removed because you called me names and engaged in ableist, casteist slurs.
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#35
A few things I want to address, I am not interested in doing this point for point thing with Vivek anymore as it makes for cumbersome reading to viewers and it seems he gets repetitive.

Blaming non-Tamils for the caste problem in Tamil Nadu is ridiculous. Periyar wasn't a Tamilian, Karunadhi on the other hand is a Tamilian. Pointing out the fact that Tamil Nadu has a massive caste problem doesn't translate to hating Tamil Nadu, Tamil language or Tamil culture. That's patently dishonest. I also find the irony in this amusing, considering you aren't even an ethnic Tamil and you are castigating an ethnic Tamil to be hateful towards her roots.
Or are you one of those DMK fundie types, who thinks Tamil Brahmins and Tamil Muslims aren't really "Tamil?"

Finally, I wonder if Vivek realizes that Babasaheb Ambedkar's last name is a Deshasth Brahmin last name and he didn't give that away. Instead, he adopted a more universalist approach--he proposed getting rid of Hinduism in general. According to Vivek, one the most prominent Dalit and Reformist voice in India (Ambedkar) is a casteist because he retained his mentor's Brahmin last name.

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#36
Quote:Nobody is objecting to the fact that solutions on multiple fronts are required. What I am trying to make you realize is that changing caste name is not really a solution. It is just a "workaround" at best, not a fix. Again I will encourage you to consider the hair example. Or if you want a real world problem then racism could be another example. The solution to racism isn't for dark skin colored people to start using fairness cream (presuming they work) or for fair skin colored people to get tanned. Its for the society to realize that discrimination cannot be justified on such stupid concepts..

All of you are looking at the caste name removal from completely different perspective from dravidian movement. I think so far I didnt mention about this in Nirmukta... Ok I explain now. Another important cause, for advocating to remove caste name is because, its Hindu religion introduced culture... whereas tamil community or dravidian community are not casteist in nature, during early sangam period. The intention of dravidian movement is to revive that past eagalitarian community, by shunning this aryan introduced caste system. What all you are explaining is very clear and I could agree too, but what is the problem for Gayathri if people wantedly shed their caste name to retain their dravidian or tamil identity??? The next question she asks is why people are not opting for Intercaste, There are people supporting doing that also. What is the dire need for Gayathri to completely hate people who wanted shed their caste name??? Why do she wanna degrade them??? I won't accept the caste name removed person, boasts as if he achieved a great thing by doing this, but certainly a first step. I see ray hope in communities, when they loose caste names too. Which makes us to feel being out of Hindu religion clutches.




(11-Oct-2012, 01:44 AM)envirovivek Wrote:
Quote:but to realize the fact that people might have different hair and still leave peacefully without any discrimination.

I guess such a scenario is not possible in near future. There are certain significant percentage of people who uses caste names out there in society are still using it for the caste pride display.

And this is where the efficacy of dropping caste names seem to be dim (bolstered by a case study already mentioned). Until and unless the inherent mentality is challenged, people will keep finding innovative ways to discriminate. You drop names, they'll find accent. You drop accent, they'll find something else. And that is the whole point. The problem is mentality and that needs to be addressed.
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But all of you are not understanding one thing, when I say caste name should be removed, I certainly mean there should be enough effort for mentality change too. The person who shuns the caste name out of his concious decision won't stop there. My question is what is the need for Gayathri to oppose or belittle this caste name removal practice??? Shunning the caste names from public display is itself a big achievement to an extent. Its not wholesome solution though... businessman cant flirt with the same caste bureaucrate just by following the publicly displayed caste name, when caste names are not there. Probability is relatively quite low, like this many benefits are there. Therefore saying caste name removal as useless or bogus is illogical arguement. In practical day today life hectic scheduled communities, lack of caste name certainly benefits people from reducing favouritism to an extent. If the same caste discrimination happens using other tools, means those tools also to be countered like caste names countered by shunning it. We can't guarantee 100% of peoples mentality change in short run, but certainly shunning of caste name by single GO, would do away with particular percentage or probability of caste name based biases.

As a dravidian Telugu person I wish to shed everything from me which is related to Hindu religon. Including this aelien caste naming system.
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