Quote:I addressed everything point by point, even though you were often repetitive and redundant--and even though it took half an hour to research and reply. .
Very good job, you never replied me straight,instead made twists and turns, I tried to travel along with you, thinking I must give replies to all your claims, but finally you are accusing me of redundant...
It debunks your claim of caste name removal resulting in less caste privilege. Most of caste privilege--almost all of it actually, has precious little to do with last names. [/quote]
Lack of a research study on this hypothesis is not mistake of mine, based on my observations in life so far, it benefits the communities to end caste name based biases in public.
Quote:Cmon why you single out Non-brahmins alone???? Aren't you casteist here??? Casteist are there in all spheres. Not only non-Brahmins or Brahmins. Do show me a single arguement in which I sounded casteist like you.... Quote without distorting what i've said.
[/quote] More nonsensical ad hominem. You've yet to prove how I am a casteist, solely because of my last name. [/quote]
Only your words, kind of arguments made me to reply so. Out of the tópic discussions always....
Quote:I gave you report that included teachers in TN making Dalit children sit behind, making them clean toilets, failing students, etc. Did you read any of the links given at all? I am focussing on Tamil Nadu because you keep debating about Tamil Nadu. .
Oh really these are news for me...
Unfounded ad hominem. Stating a reported and observe form of discrimination doesn't amount to hating a state. If that were the case, I must hate India, America and humanity in general because I state unpleasant facts.
Provocking others by placing irrelevant citations and if I criticize you for placing irrelevant citations, you coveniently say that you stated unpleasant facts. Right skill to divert and suppress the healthy debates, keep it up...
Quote:There's one more person here with his caste based last name who has argued the same with you. I don't see you getting in a huff with him the way you have with me.
I don't speak to him so because, he is not distorting facts as you are and he is replying starightly to my quesries, its you dumping the thread with unrelated citations and arguments which are not the objective of the debate. The way you dumped unrelated citations is itself is a proof you hate dravidian movement and Tamil nadu...
Quote:What privileges was I denied? o_O
I never even lived in Tamil Nadu.
And "you people"? Seriously? That alone deserves a banhammer.
Thank you for directing moderator to ban me, and by the way you should now anwer for all these because its you who intentionally provoked me, by bringing in irrelevant and your favourite bashable topics, even if its not needed for the debate. Ever since I started this debate, i wanted to end it soon ans wanted to manage other works of mine.... I was expecting you would be to the point in arguements, but you toook irrelevant diversions intentionally and irritated me (who is looking to finish off the topic soon... )
Quote:Because you keep bringing it up as a panacea that should be applicable all over the world to anyone of Indian/Hindu background--and when this approach hasn't worked at all even where it started from.
This is what called putting your words into my mouth... First of all I hate Hindu religion, being a dravidian myself... Am not fool to suggest a single thing ideology or movement of panacea for all... Even for the TN this dravidian ideology is of no use anymore... TN should head towards, Tamil natonalism,,, Thank you putting the blame on me and escaping safely.... first you come out of your stereotyping mindset that those who support shedding caste name would be a blind follower of dravidian movement ideologies. I am open for criticism, provided those topics which u discuss are really relevant for the objective of the debate. I was in hurry to end this topic, this is such a small topic, nothing much to discuss, only with that hope I entered debating in CFT... but undemocratic forum excited me by blocking me, which badly reflected here too... Irrelevant posts of yours indeed succeeded in provoking me.. thank you...
[/quote]If you don't have the proof for it, don't expect others to buy your ideology. This is like theists demanding we believe in God, despite them having no proof for it.[/quote]
No scientist in this world starts testing a hypothesis thinking that the hypothesis which he is researching is bogus or illogical... One such hypothesis is mine about caste names...
[/quote]I am not going to change my name based on what you think will be helpful, [/quote]
Don't be of that dream, as if am joblessly sitting here debating eagerly to get your name changed. You are baseless accusations against me... Exactly for such accusations only I was getting repeated from you, I was asking proofs from you n number of times, but you failed to give such proofs... Is this a strategy of yours to corner people saying that they hate you beacause of your caste??? Believe me , there is no damn need for me to lie here... I was sincerely for debating why caste name shedding is not significant... Beyond that i have no any other greater agenda of making one to shed their caste name.... What you do with your caste name is immaterial for me...
Quote:Give me helpful data to prove that how a person living in the west changing their name can lead to lessening of casteism in India
Similar kind of irrelavant questions only I was kept getting from you... One thing is sure both of us are prejudiced about each other... I have other reasonable works to do than getting you shed your caste name... which is none of my business..
Quote:When I say TN students, its strictly TN students, students who come from other states do retain their caste names in TN institutions, TN is not dictating terms to other state people, as you were trying to project. If mine is anecdotal yours is also anecdotal.
I debunked you anecdotal claims with my anecdotal claims--that's why I demand some form of study or citation. As for not imposing this on out of staters, why then are you imposing it on an American-Indian who was born and raised in Gujarat?[/quote]
Indian american women is conveniently forgetting that she is the one who was questioning the practices in Tamil Nadu, tried to degrade certain practices... I submit hereby I just came here to ask why you wanna degrade that... Nothing more, don't keep dreaming everyone is behind you joblessly to asking you to remove you last name...
Quote:You keep saying that except your actions don't show that. You have attacked me for retaining my last name--but you haven't even changed your Hindu name. If you seriously think religious names are as bad as caste names, why haven't you done that while demanding I shed mine?
I am time constrained and wanted end the debate faster only because of that I couldn take some time to explain you that, I hate Hinduism to its core... And I wont do that because its given name,
and because you don't want to know the difference between the significance of given name and caste name removal..
Quote:Erm, you made several examples of how "my people" don't like losing benefits, how "my people" can get homes easier, jobs easier, etc. Who are these "my people" that you keep referring to? It doesn't take much to realize you are talking specifically about Iyer/Iyengars.
You are skilled provocater, thank you... keep building stories about me.... to give such a reply only you have been repeatedly diverting, twisting and and repeatedly claiming that I am targeting brahmins, which is non-sense... I too have best friends ffrom all communities...
Quote:Your thinly veiled accusation that I am a casteist despite engaged in anti-caste activism andin inter-caste marriage, all because I think changing last names is cosmetic and futile--is illogical. It simply doesn't add up.
thank you for understanding... but you fail to notice I equally mentioning that people who don't do Inter-caste marriages and criticize it also are harmful group of people...
Quote:Yes I agree to this 100 %, 200% and 300%, I join with you to say this again and again.
Quote:I don't want you to join me. I want you to have the same level of anger, bitterness and hostility
I am already showing it, I cant keep making irrelevant arguements like you to just prove this alone... my objective for entering the debate is different, wanted to debate healthily about debunking of caste name removal practices...
Quote:that you show towards me for my last name. You don't, which exposes the hollowness of this whole caste name approach.
Sorry you dream a lot. I think here after a non-brahmin should not debate with a brahmin at all it seems. There are people like you, waiting to corner and paint a casteist slur...
Your misundertandings and your stubborn attitude of not accepting the truth won't make caste name removal practise a futile one...
Unlike you, I cited reports and studies and tried documenting all my claims. You've failed to provide the burden of proof on multiple counts. I also didn't attack you personally, but merely pointed out your own ideological flaws and the various fallacies you rely on to support your stance. [/quote]
Oh really?? the irrelevant citations and documents and arguments you placed had done the job you intended, that is to provoke me and get the debate end in the middle(because you are not daring enough to debate to the point, instead go telling fairy tale stories, for which I didn't had time at this moment....) on top of it get my name spoiled in this Nirmukta forum... thank you for that....
Quote:Retaining caste name itself a small blot on your Inter-Marriage. (Doing caste marriage is big blot on a person who wishes to say he removed his caste name). I feel you are over tom toming your inter-marriage, I suspect, you wanna convey to the world, see even being as an Iyer I made Inter-marriage, that is the important motive you have, if it is so be it.
Quote:No, it is not a "blot" on my marriage. I want to show how inane it is to call someone who breaks caste barrier and puts her money where mouth is as a casteist, when you don't show even an ounce of similar antagonism towards those who strengthen the caste system.
Thank you, I wonder how you are measuring my ounces of antagonism sitting remotely...
Quote:Oh, so thinking that removing caste names is a pointless endeavor is a "crime" now?
Yes indeed, you are asking people to re-practise the usage of caste name which is harmful to the society...
[/quote] Show me proof, I've asked you this a thousand times. Give me studies that show removing caste last name removes discrimination. If you can't prove it, concede that it is merely an ideological window dressing. [/quote]
There is no need for convince a person who is stubborn not to see.... There is no study as of now doesn't mean, no study is going to happen at all... caste name removal haters can be in that dream that its a ideological window dressing...
What is there to take pride in retaining their caste name, the very caste heirarchic structure itself is from perverted varnasrama dharma, manudharma.... Does Nirmukta prescribe varnasramadharma retainment???... Its the individual who take final call in retaining or loosing the caste names. I strongly condemn you for bringing this arguement to me again again to me.
If it is an individual's choice, then why in the world are you spending so much time beating your chest about how I should abandon my last name? That isn't giving someone a choice. That is hounding someone into doing what you want them to do. And no, you don't have the right to dictate to Dalits or any oppressed groups how they should identify. So yes, I'd consider you a privileged upper caste person who thinks he knows he can tell what Dalits to do with their last names. [/quote]
Good story cooking, keep cooking to satisfy you hate.... I have more worthful jobs on earth than this...
Quote:The above question was targeted towards you, hence you raising the same towards me is meaningless, I didnt bring the debate about Imperialist doing this or that... its you, who is very eager to blame imperialist for each and every thing like Hinduthvaadhins... You answer for yourself.
Quote:Do you have amnesia? You were the one who brought up this whole British imperialism thing. Lovely, now I get called a Hindutvad too because I have Iyer as my last name.
Its you the one who have amnesia, see the following reply of your saying only british brought caste naming.... Nw tell me who is amnesic????
Doesn't shedding the caste name a revolutionary thing to do??? How do you say that??
Quote:It isn't in Tamil/South Indian culture because the concept of last names didn't exist in Indian society till about the 17th/18th century; it mostly coincided with British census taking where village or caste name would be taken into consideration.
Quote: Citations please?
Really, a youtube video? Give me a scholarly citation. Youtube videos don't count. And I specifically asked where the caste names were used as last names. Not whether caste existed or not. Nice try at goal post shifting, but fail.[/quote]
That's a valid proof, the person who presents is quoting refernces... If you really wan a scholarly article, you got to wait... Don't gloat as if you gave so many scholarly articles, 90% of them I didnt ask for , you gave them to dilute the debate intentionally....
Quote:Why is given name any different from last name? So if my give name was Iyer, it would be fine? o_O
Yes it would be fine... but never thats the case...
Quote:If I have a name like Nila Tamizhmozhi, do you think someone is going to think said person is a Muslim?
Ooops what a logic??? you asked for non-religious, name, you yourself said one, which is a good example for non-religious, now you want it to be sounded Muslim???? First make sure what you wanna argue... Don't confuse people intentionally...
Quote:then what is non-religious name???
That's the point, almost all names in some way or other come with burdens of privilege. It is impossible. If I named my daughter Quinn Brown, that name would still come with baggage--people would think she is Christian, westerner and white. And she'd get privileges associated with all those markers, which I assure you is far greater than the name Gayathri Iyer in western or Indian society. Yet I doubt any of you anti-caste last namers will find that name objectionable.
Then what for you were bragging so much about non-religious names??? isn't this a proof that you are making arguements to confuse people????
What i always keep searching for my future generation young childrens are non-hindu and non-sanskritic good dravidian or autro asiatic root word name...
Quote:Erm, how many times have I repeated now that I don't live in Tamil Nadu/India? Yet how long have you been arguing with me about this and calling all sorts of names?
I was calling you all sorts of names because you were advocating a flawed arguement for the others in TN who are already moving in right path by shunning caste name as first step.... atleast by this you try to understand my eagerness to argue with is not because of your surname, but becase you are trying to degrade a practise which is going in right path, even if its not absolute, it have atleast some benefit of caste name free public offices and places...
Finally, you got removed because you called me names and engaged in ableist, casteist slurs.
I called you names, I agree, but I didnt call you casteist then in facebook, only in the today morning replies I called you so.... Even then such a undemocratic blocking is not fair for Nirmukta kind of organisations... People who take up the responsibility of moderation or admin need patience, to handle people... Don't think am just preaching I too run groups in facebook for just cause of getting all 8th schedule languages as official language of union... So please engage with people, atleast people like us would be ready to change if handles properly, but certainly not the way I got handled, I took pain to message each and every admin of that group till this moment none gave solid reason why they removed.... Thank you for giving the reason atleast here, based on your reply whích is evident you didnt give me democratic space to be in that group...