Do caste names propagate the caste divide?

[Captain Mandrake]

[quote='envirovivek' pid='7421' dateline='1349916540']
[quote]
whereas tamil community or dravidian community are not casteist in nature, during early sangam period. The intention of dravidian movement is to revive that past eagalitarian community, by shunning this aryan introduced caste system.
[/quote]

Is there any evidence for this claim that an egalitarian society actually existed in India before the Aryans arrived?

Aryans migrated to or invaded India around 1500-500 BCE. How did the Dravidian people establish an egalitarian society some 2500-3500 years in the past when all attempts to create such a society by all cultures have failed everywhere (eg. Kibbutz communes in Israel, Communism in Russia and China) across the world?

What is so special about the Dravidian approach? Can you please explain?

[Gayaisbrown]

Quote:All of you are looking at the caste name removal from completely different perspective from dravidian movement.

Yes, because you see Dravidian movement is not universally applicable all over India or the world.

Quote:Another important cause, for advocating to remove caste name is because, its Hindu religion introduced culture... whereas tamil community or dravidian community are not casteist in nature, during early sangam period.

That's rich considering the various caste mentions in Sangam literature. Your claim is a complete fabrication similar to Hindutvadi Out of India migration theory.
Caste in Sangam Literature

Kannagi spares Brahmins

"The God of Fire appeared before her and awaited her instructions. Kannagi told him, 'Spare Brahmins, virtuous men, cows, chaste women, old people and children and consume the rest/ The city was enveloped by flame all round."

Quote:but what is the problem for Gayathri if people wantedly shed their caste name to retain their dravidian or tamil identity???The next question she asks is why people are not opting for Intercaste, There are people supporting doing that also. What is the dire need for Gayathri to completely hate people who wanted shed their caste name??? Why do she wanna degrade them??? I won't accept the caste name removed person, boasts as if he achieved a great thing by doing this, but certainly a first step. I see ray hope in communities, when they loose caste names too. Which makes us to feel being out of Hindu religion clutches.

What? o_O

How many times have I said this on CFT, I don't care if someone decides to ditch their name--they can name themselves Appendix Twocup for all I care. What I do not appreciate is how often people bring up other people's last name to attack them and how some people completely deny religious and gender privilege in their names.

[Captain Mandrake]

I think the Dravidian movement has mightily screwed up South Indians with a lot of linguistic (Yes, they say that Tamil is the oldest language.) chauvinism and racial (Yes they do think that South Indians are racially different from North Indians) superiority nonsense.

[Gayaisbrown]

(11-Oct-2012, 07:02 AM)Captain Mandrake Wrote: I think the Dravidian movement has mightily screwed up South Indians with a lot of linguistic (Yes, they say that Tamil is the oldest language.) chauvinism and racial (Yes they do think that South Indians are racially different from North Indians) superiority nonsense.

There's a lot of good that came out of it as well, and I appreciate that. But yes--there are some unsavory aspects of it including psuedoscientific racial mumbo-jumbo, which I wish we'd do away with.

[envirovivek]

Quote:I addressed everything point by point, even though you were often repetitive and redundant--and even though it took half an hour to research and reply. .

Very good job, you never replied me straight,instead made twists and turns, I tried to travel along with you, thinking I must give replies to all your claims, but finally you are accusing me of redundant...


[/quote]
It debunks your claim of caste name removal resulting in less caste privilege. Most of caste privilege--almost all of it actually, has precious little to do with last names. [/quote]

Lack of a research study on this hypothesis is not mistake of mine, based on my observations in life so far, it benefits the communities to end caste name based biases in public.

Quote:Cmon why you single out Non-brahmins alone???? Aren't you casteist here??? Casteist are there in all spheres. Not only non-Brahmins or Brahmins. Do show me a single arguement in which I sounded casteist like you.... Quote without distorting what i've said.

[/quote] More nonsensical ad hominem. You've yet to prove how I am a casteist, solely because of my last name. [/quote]

Only your words, kind of arguments made me to reply so. Out of the tópic discussions always....

.

Quote:I gave you report that included teachers in TN making Dalit children sit behind, making them clean toilets, failing students, etc. Did you read any of the links given at all? I am focussing on Tamil Nadu because you keep debating about Tamil Nadu. .

Oh really these are news for me...

Quote:
Unfounded ad hominem. Stating a reported and observe form of discrimination doesn't amount to hating a state. If that were the case, I must hate India, America and humanity in general because I state unpleasant facts.

Provocking others by placing irrelevant citations and if I criticize you for placing irrelevant citations, you coveniently say that you stated unpleasant facts. Right skill to divert and suppress the healthy debates, keep it up...

Quote:There's one more person here with his caste based last name who has argued the same with you. I don't see you getting in a huff with him the way you have with me.

I don't speak to him so because, he is not distorting facts as you are and he is replying starightly to my quesries, its you dumping the thread with unrelated citations and arguments which are not the objective of the debate. The way you dumped unrelated citations is itself is a proof you hate dravidian movement and Tamil nadu...

Quote:What privileges was I denied? o_O
I never even lived in Tamil Nadu.
And "you people"? Seriously? That alone deserves a banhammer.

Thank you for directing moderator to ban me, and by the way you should now anwer for all these because its you who intentionally provoked me, by bringing in irrelevant and your favourite bashable topics, even if its not needed for the debate. Ever since I started this debate, i wanted to end it soon ans wanted to manage other works of mine.... I was expecting you would be to the point in arguements, but you toook irrelevant diversions intentionally and irritated me (who is looking to finish off the topic soon... )

Quote:Because you keep bringing it up as a panacea that should be applicable all over the world to anyone of Indian/Hindu background--and when this approach hasn't worked at all even where it started from.

This is what called putting your words into my mouth... First of all I hate Hindu religion, being a dravidian myself... Am not fool to suggest a single thing ideology or movement of panacea for all... Even for the TN this dravidian ideology is of no use anymore... TN should head towards, Tamil natonalism,,, Thank you putting the blame on me and escaping safely.... first you come out of your stereotyping mindset that those who support shedding caste name would be a blind follower of dravidian movement ideologies. I am open for criticism, provided those topics which u discuss are really relevant for the objective of the debate. I was in hurry to end this topic, this is such a small topic, nothing much to discuss, only with that hope I entered debating in CFT... but undemocratic forum excited me by blocking me, which badly reflected here too... Irrelevant posts of yours indeed succeeded in provoking me.. thank you...

[/quote]If you don't have the proof for it, don't expect others to buy your ideology. This is like theists demanding we believe in God, despite them having no proof for it.[/quote]

No scientist in this world starts testing a hypothesis thinking that the hypothesis which he is researching is bogus or illogical... One such hypothesis is mine about caste names...

[/quote]I am not going to change my name based on what you think will be helpful, [/quote]

Don't be of that dream, as if am joblessly sitting here debating eagerly to get your name changed. You are baseless accusations against me... Exactly for such accusations only I was getting repeated from you, I was asking proofs from you n number of times, but you failed to give such proofs... Is this a strategy of yours to corner people saying that they hate you beacause of your caste??? Believe me , there is no damn need for me to lie here... I was sincerely for debating why caste name shedding is not significant... Beyond that i have no any other greater agenda of making one to shed their caste name.... What you do with your caste name is immaterial for me...

Quote:Give me helpful data to prove that how a person living in the west changing their name can lead to lessening of casteism in India

Similar kind of irrelavant questions only I was kept getting from you... One thing is sure both of us are prejudiced about each other... I have other reasonable works to do than getting you shed your caste name... which is none of my business..

Quote:When I say TN students, its strictly TN students, students who come from other states do retain their caste names in TN institutions, TN is not dictating terms to other state people, as you were trying to project. If mine is anecdotal yours is also anecdotal.

[/quote]
I debunked you anecdotal claims with my anecdotal claims--that's why I demand some form of study or citation. As for not imposing this on out of staters, why then are you imposing it on an American-Indian who was born and raised in Gujarat?[/quote]

Indian american women is conveniently forgetting that she is the one who was questioning the practices in Tamil Nadu, tried to degrade certain practices... I submit hereby I just came here to ask why you wanna degrade that... Nothing more, don't keep dreaming everyone is behind you joblessly to asking you to remove you last name...

Quote:You keep saying that except your actions don't show that. You have attacked me for retaining my last name--but you haven't even changed your Hindu name. If you seriously think religious names are as bad as caste names, why haven't you done that while demanding I shed mine?

I am time constrained and wanted end the debate faster only because of that I couldn take some time to explain you that, I hate Hinduism to its core... And I wont do that because its given name,
and because you don't want to know the difference between the significance of given name and caste name removal..

Quote:Erm, you made several examples of how "my people" don't like losing benefits, how "my people" can get homes easier, jobs easier, etc. Who are these "my people" that you keep referring to? It doesn't take much to realize you are talking specifically about Iyer/Iyengars.

You are skilled provocater, thank you... keep building stories about me.... to give such a reply only you have been repeatedly diverting, twisting and and repeatedly claiming that I am targeting brahmins, which is non-sense... I too have best friends ffrom all communities...

Quote:Your thinly veiled accusation that I am a casteist despite engaged in anti-caste activism andin inter-caste marriage, all because I think changing last names is cosmetic and futile--is illogical. It simply doesn't add up.

thank you for understanding... but you fail to notice I equally mentioning that people who don't do Inter-caste marriages and criticize it also are harmful group of people...

Quote:Yes I agree to this 100 %, 200% and 300%, I join with you to say this again and again.

Quote:I don't want you to join me. I want you to have the same level of anger, bitterness and hostility

I am already showing it, I cant keep making irrelevant arguements like you to just prove this alone... my objective for entering the debate is different, wanted to debate healthily about debunking of caste name removal practices...

Quote:that you show towards me for my last name. You don't, which exposes the hollowness of this whole caste name approach.

Sorry you dream a lot. I think here after a non-brahmin should not debate with a brahmin at all it seems. There are people like you, waiting to corner and paint a casteist slur...
Your misundertandings and your stubborn attitude of not accepting the truth won't make caste name removal practise a futile one...


[/quote]
Unlike you, I cited reports and studies and tried documenting all my claims. You've failed to provide the burden of proof on multiple counts. I also didn't attack you personally, but merely pointed out your own ideological flaws and the various fallacies you rely on to support your stance. [/quote]

Oh really?? the irrelevant citations and documents and arguments you placed had done the job you intended, that is to provoke me and get the debate end in the middle(because you are not daring enough to debate to the point, instead go telling fairy tale stories, for which I didn't had time at this moment....) on top of it get my name spoiled in this Nirmukta forum... thank you for that....

Quote:Retaining caste name itself a small blot on your Inter-Marriage. (Doing caste marriage is big blot on a person who wishes to say he removed his caste name). I feel you are over tom toming your inter-marriage, I suspect, you wanna convey to the world, see even being as an Iyer I made Inter-marriage, that is the important motive you have, if it is so be it.

Quote:No, it is not a "blot" on my marriage. I want to show how inane it is to call someone who breaks caste barrier and puts her money where mouth is as a casteist, when you don't show even an ounce of similar antagonism towards those who strengthen the caste system.

Thank you, I wonder how you are measuring my ounces of antagonism sitting remotely...

Quote:Oh, so thinking that removing caste names is a pointless endeavor is a "crime" now?

Yes indeed, you are asking people to re-practise the usage of caste name which is harmful to the society...

[/quote] Show me proof, I've asked you this a thousand times. Give me studies that show removing caste last name removes discrimination. If you can't prove it, concede that it is merely an ideological window dressing. [/quote]

There is no need for convince a person who is stubborn not to see.... There is no study as of now doesn't mean, no study is going to happen at all... caste name removal haters can be in that dream that its a ideological window dressing...

[/quote]
What is there to take pride in retaining their caste name, the very caste heirarchic structure itself is from perverted varnasrama dharma, manudharma.... Does Nirmukta prescribe varnasramadharma retainment???... Its the individual who take final call in retaining or loosing the caste names. I strongly condemn you for bringing this arguement to me again again to me.
[/quote]

[/quote]
If it is an individual's choice, then why in the world are you spending so much time beating your chest about how I should abandon my last name? That isn't giving someone a choice. That is hounding someone into doing what you want them to do. And no, you don't have the right to dictate to Dalits or any oppressed groups how they should identify. So yes, I'd consider you a privileged upper caste person who thinks he knows he can tell what Dalits to do with their last names. [/quote]

Good story cooking, keep cooking to satisfy you hate.... I have more worthful jobs on earth than this...

Quote:The above question was targeted towards you, hence you raising the same towards me is meaningless, I didnt bring the debate about Imperialist doing this or that... its you, who is very eager to blame imperialist for each and every thing like Hinduthvaadhins... You answer for yourself.

Quote:Do you have amnesia? You were the one who brought up this whole British imperialism thing. Lovely, now I get called a Hindutvad too because I have Iyer as my last name.

Its you the one who have amnesia, see the following reply of your saying only british brought caste naming.... Nw tell me who is amnesic????

Quote:Quote:
Doesn't shedding the caste name a revolutionary thing to do??? How do you say that??

Quote:It isn't in Tamil/South Indian culture because the concept of last names didn't exist in Indian society till about the 17th/18th century; it mostly coincided with British census taking where village or caste name would be taken into consideration.

Quote: Citations please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt4T7jZDIQo&t=4m35s

Really, a youtube video? Give me a scholarly citation. Youtube videos don't count. And I specifically asked where the caste names were used as last names. Not whether caste existed or not. Nice try at goal post shifting, but fail.[/quote]

That's a valid proof, the person who presents is quoting refernces... If you really wan a scholarly article, you got to wait... Don't gloat as if you gave so many scholarly articles, 90% of them I didnt ask for , you gave them to dilute the debate intentionally....

Quote:Why is given name any different from last name? So if my give name was Iyer, it would be fine? o_O

Yes it would be fine... but never thats the case...

Quote:If I have a name like Nila Tamizhmozhi, do you think someone is going to think said person is a Muslim?

Ooops what a logic??? you asked for non-religious, name, you yourself said one, which is a good example for non-religious, now you want it to be sounded Muslim???? First make sure what you wanna argue... Don't confuse people intentionally...

Quote:then what is non-religious name???

That's the point, almost all names in some way or other come with burdens of privilege. It is impossible. If I named my daughter Quinn Brown, that name would still come with baggage--people would think she is Christian, westerner and white. And she'd get privileges associated with all those markers, which I assure you is far greater than the name Gayathri Iyer in western or Indian society. Yet I doubt any of you anti-caste last namers will find that name objectionable.

Then what for you were bragging so much about non-religious names??? isn't this a proof that you are making arguements to confuse people????

What i always keep searching for my future generation young childrens are non-hindu and non-sanskritic good dravidian or autro asiatic root word name...

Quote:Erm, how many times have I repeated now that I don't live in Tamil Nadu/India? Yet how long have you been arguing with me about this and calling all sorts of names?

I was calling you all sorts of names because you were advocating a flawed arguement for the others in TN who are already moving in right path by shunning caste name as first step.... atleast by this you try to understand my eagerness to argue with is not because of your surname, but becase you are trying to degrade a practise which is going in right path, even if its not absolute, it have atleast some benefit of caste name free public offices and places...

[/quote]

Finally, you got removed because you called me names and engaged in ableist, casteist slurs.
[/quote]

I called you names, I agree, but I didnt call you casteist then in facebook, only in the today morning replies I called you so.... Even then such a undemocratic blocking is not fair for Nirmukta kind of organisations... People who take up the responsibility of moderation or admin need patience, to handle people... Don't think am just preaching I too run groups in facebook for just cause of getting all 8th schedule languages as official language of union... So please engage with people, atleast people like us would be ready to change if handles properly, but certainly not the way I got handled, I took pain to message each and every admin of that group till this moment none gave solid reason why they removed.... Thank you for giving the reason atleast here, based on your reply whích is evident you didnt give me democratic space to be in that group...

[Lije]

Moved the discussion on Dravidian nationalism to this thread.

[Gayaisbrown]

So in short, you can't write properly to save your life, everyone has to "wait" for your citations and you engage in personal attacks when you feel your ideology is under attack. Gotcha. You are so deluded by ideology that you claim some mythical amazing civilization, even though all proof points it was just like any other civilization with its social stratification and problems. Of course, you'll call most historians as anti-Dravidian or anti-Tamizh the way Hindutvadi crazies call historians anti-Hindu.
And you are too full of Hindu privilege to realize that non-religious Tamil names are still very much default Hindu names. That such names still give you privilege over Muslim named people.
That you defy reality when you say that Karunanidhi is not a Tamil and blame non-Tamils for the cesspool that is Tamil politics. That you are a racist xenophobic regionalist who thinks anyone who is not an ethnic Tamil should not run for office in Tamil Nadu--even though the hero of your movement, Periyar, wasn't even a Tamil.

Finally, you can't even sense the hilarity of making declarations about how you've got better things to do several times--and yet have been writing barely readable screeds and rants for the last two days.

[envirovivek]

(11-Oct-2012, 07:39 PM)Lije Wrote: Moved the discussion on Dravidian nationalism to this thread.

Sorry It's Not Dravidian Nationalism its Dravidian Movement...

[envirovivek]

(11-Oct-2012, 01:44 AM)envirovivek Wrote: [quote='Kanad Kanhere' pid='7411' dateline='1349896338']
envirovivek, No name calling please! If you want others to have rational discussion, without ad-hominems, lead by example.

Quote:Dear Kanad, I agree no name calling is acceptable. But what shall i do if a person repeatedly distorts what I say and repeatedly raises a same charges against me that am concerned only about IYer and IYengar, even after I made it clear, I am condemning everyone equally. And many more distortions of my arguement. Am also eager to see a healthy debate from her.

Dear Admin Please Explian me, What kind of Name calling and Ad-hominems I had involved in my past posts of this warning which you issued to me.

I want to understand which arguements in my posts were name calling and Ad-hominem...

I should have asked it that day itself, out of over humbleness and obedience... I wish to get your kind reply saying what mistake I did...

I am always thankful to you for moderating me, instead of blocking me like in other forums... And for giving replies for the doubts I raise...

Thank you,
Vivek Babu

[envirovivek]

(11-Oct-2012, 11:54 PM)Gayaisbrown Wrote: So in short,

I am very sorry for the delayed reply. Yesterday while making replies about Hindi-imposition issues I made a reply to your post too... I just previewed the post and failed to post it as reply, closed the tab... I am re-typing my reply now...

I wish to write this reply with peace and a step for constructive debate. I am sort of guy, who won't give up the debates untill I reach a conclusion. I will cooperate in all ways for healthy debate provided the debate happens with the intent of knowledge sharing and perspective sharing than the intent of winning the arguements or pushing the ideology one believes in...

Quote:you can't write properly to save your life, everyone has to "wait" for your citations

You have to accept one thing, I am not here to pass slander are spread negatives of a group of people or community as such, so I don't have full packed citations like you had. Will u forgive me for not having such intent?

And regarding citations I am in communication with linguists about Caste Surnames. And regarding SC-ST statistics, give me some time, i got to search that, I had gone through a statistic few months ago, I don't have bookmars, I will get it soon....

Quote:and you engage in personal attacks when you feel your ideology is under attack.

Yes I did am extremely sorry for that. I don't worry if my Ideology is attacked, I worry if it is attacked and tried to disprove by meaningless comparisons and distorted arguments and diversionary tactics... I will get more angry if key people of a community or forum making such distortions without proper arguements then I get angry. If the same arguement in CFT was made by member I would have not got angry, but a person who is admin and on top of it has caste surname and makes such a distorted attack on my ideology I will reply them strongly...

Quote:You are so deluded by ideology that you claim some mythical amazing civilization, even though all proof points it was just like any other civilization with its social stratification and problems.

I gave you very recent International peer reviewed article still you think its mythical??? So you won't accept articles recently published in favour of Tamils????

Quote:Of course, you'll call most historians as anti-Dravidian or anti-Tamizh the way Hindutvadi crazies call historians anti-Hindu.

These are unnecessary comparisons and ad-hominems(Mind you, its you, the first person who started using ad-hominems in our whole communications so far. Its you, first used. Which angered me. I hate Hindu religion to the core, the moment you used such criticisms on me I got angry following that only my replies are bit nervous and angry replies, I appealed to moderators you are distorting my comments)

Certainly there are anti-Dravidian and Anti-tamizh historians are there in this country, who are called pro-hinduthva historians. They hate Tamizh because, Its the one language which challenges their Sanskrit(Mother of all languages). They hate Dravidian because (If dravidians are true then the Aryan Migration into India becomes true, then they can't keep baming Mughals, They fail to see even Dravidians are Migrants but early migrants, nothing much differnece. Amidst all this everyone forgets Austro-Asiatic Languages.)

Quote:And you are too full of Hindu privilege to realize that non-religious Tamil names are still very much default Hindu names.

I was thinking only names with hindu goddess and sanskrit names as Hindu names. Because tamil is Dravidian, so calling Tamil names from tamil root words as Hindu is insulting to the classical language. This was my understanding about Non-religious names.

I agree my name is Hindu previleged but don't tell I am Hindu-privileged, I hate Hinduism.

Quote:That such names still give you privilege over Muslim named people.

You always ask me to have non-religious names, How to do that, I dono how to find Non-religious names??? Give me some suggestions.

Quote:That you defy reality when you say that Karunanidhi is not a Tamil

I say again and again Karunanidhi Must accept what you are saying. I always appealed to Telugu constituencies saying He is one in them and relative. Truth never dies even if you keep chanting lies as manthras of your free thinking.... I am amzed to see your love for karunanidhi.

Quote:and blame non-Tamils for the cesspool that is Tamil politics.

I am not blaming, I am self-critical of my own community. What irritates you when I am being self-critical about the community I belong to. Are you getting blind in urge to criticize my points????

Quote:That you are a racist

How does a Telugu person becomes racist when he wants to see a Tamilian as Next chief Minister of His state TN???
This suggestion of mine comes out my pain and anger after seeing a Genocide. I want a strong Tamil Nadu Government, not corrupt old ones. I tell a tamilian should rule the state because, the future of Tn after recent Genocide is going to be very testing and turbulent one. In such moments, If a non-tamil sits in CM post, if he was forced(Union of India) to take decisions against the interests of TN, then tomorrow the relations between Tamils and Non-Tamils may get bitter. Already National and Media and Tamil haters in all form of disguises are eager and keen to attack Tamils as chauvenists and racists even without any citations....

Quote:xenophobic

How does a Telugu person becomes xenophobic when he wants to see a Tamilian as Next chief Minister of His state TN???

Quote:regionalist who thinks anyone who is not an ethnic Tamil should not run for office in Tamil Nadu--even though the hero of your movement, Periyar, wasn't even a Tamil.

So all your anger is on Periyar right??? It's Periyar and He is the First person in TN who said "Tamizh Nadu Tamizharukkae". Is that a news for you???

Quote:Finally, you can't even sense the hilarity of making declarations about how you've got better things to do several times--and

Yes I really mean that, I kept repeating that to mean i've got no interest to involve in debates for the sake of attacking others, I need knowledge and perspective sharing, Nothing more than that, I just need debate with ethics, not dumping the post with irrelevant citations. Thats why my replies were full of explanations to address your attacks on the Caste bias removal tool.

Quote:yet have been writing barely readable screeds

I agree it would have been screeds, its because of you i had to write like that. Because, You dumped the post with unnecessary citations.

Quote:and rants for the last two days.

I agree and ask sorry for the rants... hope you too agree that you provoked me by distorting what i've said and you were the first person to use ad-homienems (Hindutvavaad...)

[/quote]

[Kanad Kanhere]

envirovivek Wrote:So you free-thinkers won't accept articles recently published in favour of Tamils????

Do you see the hasty generalization and nasty conclusions in the argument? You have decided to have a ad-hominem free rational discussion, so it would be best if you avoid such statements.

[envirovivek]

(13-Oct-2012, 09:06 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote:

envirovivek Wrote:So you free-thinkers won't accept articles recently published in favour of Tamils????

Do you see the hasty generalization and nasty conclusions in the argument? You have decided to have a ad-hominem free rational discussion, so it would be best if you avoid such statements.

Thank you, Sorry for that, I removed That ad-hominem...