Dravidian Nationalism
#1
Mod note: Split from the thread Do caste names propagate the caste divide?

(11-Oct-2012, 08:24 AM)Gayaisbrown Wrote: There's a lot of good that came out of it as well, and I appreciate that. But yes--there are some unsavory aspects of it including psuedoscientific racial mumbo-jumbo, which I wish we'd do away with.

I have never looked at the Dravidian movement closely. Just checked out Periyar on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periyar_E._V._Ramasamy). Honestly I am not very impressed. Opposition to Hindi is a bit silly, if he can accept English why can't he accept Hindi? The anti-brahminism is downright scary. Almost like anti-semitism.



Reply
#2
A few things I want to address, I am not interested in doing this point for point thing with Vivek anymore as it makes for cumbersome reading to viewers and it seems he gets repetitive.[/quote]

Its you who is redundant and flooded the posts with irrelavant divertive arguements and citations...

Quote: Blaming non-Tamils for the caste problem in Tamil Nadu is ridiculous. Periyar wasn't a Tamilian,

Thank you for exposing your level of understanding...

[/quote]
Karunadhi on the other hand is a Tamilian.[/quote]

This karunanidhi has to accept first...

Quote:Pointing out the fact that Tamil Nadu has a massive caste problem doesn't translate to hating Tamil Nadu, Tamil language or Tamil culture. That's patently dishonest.

It translated either correctly or incorrectly because, the way you responded with divertive, irrelevant posts is the cause... atleast here after please be to the point...

[/quote] I also find the irony in this amusing, considering you aren't even an ethnic Tamil and you are castigating an ethnic Tamil to be hateful towards her roots.[/quote]

Oh that's a news, but anyhow sorry for harming your Tamil Identity, its none my business to interfere in the business of Tamils...

[/quote]
Or are you one of those DMK fundie types, who thinks Tamil Brahmins and Tamil Muslims aren't really "Tamil?"[/quote]

Again this is news for me... But FYI, I vehemently appose all dravidian parties in TN, I support only Tamil Nationalists parties in TN, which is the need of the hour for TN....

Quote:Finally, I wonder if Vivek realizes that Babasaheb Ambedkar's last name is a Deshasth Brahmin last name and he didn't give that away. Instead, he adopted a more universalist approach--he proposed getting rid of Hinduism in general.

I feel myself dravidian, I really wanna get rid of this rotten Hindu stuffs...

[/quote]According to Vivek, one the most prominent Dalit and Reformist voice in India (Ambedkar) is a casteist because he retained his mentor's Brahmin last name. [/quote]

you are in as usual with complete prejudiced about me and my intentions. Your surname didnt made me to think you are casteist,but the way you argue for degrading caste name removal practise only made to think so... But certainly I am ready to shed my prejudice about, since many in this group and correcting me so, but the way you argue is really isn't sound a constructive one... You are not debating anywhere with me, but you were always conclusive and stubborn about the issues you don't know properly...

Reply
#3
Quote:I vehemently appose all dravidian parties in TN, I support only Tamil Nationalists parties in TN, which is the need of the hour for TN

What is the difference between Dravidian parties and Tamil Nationalists parties? And will the Tamil Nationalist party kick the telugu speaking Envirovivek out of TN?
Reply
#4
[quote='Captain Mandrake' pid='7422' dateline='1349917126']
[quote='envirovivek' pid='7421' dateline='1349916540']
[quote]
whereas tamil community or dravidian community are not casteist in nature, during early sangam period. The intention of dravidian movement is to revive that past eagalitarian community, by shunning this aryan introduced caste system.
[/quote]

[quote]
"Is there any evidence for this claim that an egalitarian society actually existed in India before the Aryans arrived?"[/quote]


I dono which absolute eagalitarian society you are asking for. I dono weather the Early Tamil Sangam age community was absolute eagalitarian are not, but its certainly more eagalitarian than the varanasrama dharma bound hindu society... Which is the goal of dravidian or tamil nationalism movement.

http://m.thehindu.com/life-and-style/soc...15017.ece/

[quote]
"Aryans migrated to or invaded India around 1500-500 BCE. How did the Dravidian people establish an egalitarian society some 2500-3500 years in the past when all attempts to create such a society by all cultures have failed everywhere (eg. Kibbutz communes in Israel, Communism in Russia and China) across the world? "[/quote]

I think you are asking anthropological science related eagalitarian society... sorry am not that much aware about those, will be happy to know... What i was saying casteless society in relation to varanasrama dharma society...


[quote]
What is so special about the Dravidian approach? Can you please explain?[/quote]

In his lecture, Palaniappan said the word ‘Pulaiya’ was misinterpreted as untouchables or low-caste people. But it is related to the word ‘Polivu’, meaning flourishing and auspiciousness .

“They were not considered untouchables. In other words, untouchability was not part of the indigenous Tamil tradition,” he said. The caste system in Tamil Nadu was a borrowed factor that established itself after the Sangam period. One particular verse in ‘Puranaanuru’, sung by a Pandya king, Arya Padai Kadantha Nedunchezhiyan (he who conquered the Aryan Northern Army), the use of the phrase ‘vetrumai therintha naarpaal’ (four varnas) indicates that caste system was imported from the northern part of the country.

Untouchability free society thats the special...

For me first preference is Austro-Asiatic and second is Dravidian....




Reply
#5
Vivek,

Quote:I dono weather the Early Tamil Sangam age community was absolute eagalitarian are not, but its certainly more eagalitarian than the varanasrama dharma bound hindu society.

First of all I don't know what period can be called the Early Tamil Sangam age. But for the sake of argument let us say that this period existed free of Aryan influence. You seem to concede that in this Early Tamil Sangam period there must have been some sort of social stratification but that this stratification was not as bad as the caste system. Can you provide evidence for that claim? Also, can you tell me who were those in the lowest strata of the society during the Early Sangam period? What is the status of their descendants today?

Quote:In his lecture, Palaniappan said the word ‘Pulaiya’ was misinterpreted as untouchables or low-caste people. But it is related to the word ‘Polivu’, meaning flourishing and auspiciousness .

Sounds made up. This reminds me of muslims saying that virgins in the "72 virgins in paradise for the martyr" was a mistranslation of raisins.

Quote:For me first preference is Austro-Asiatic and second is Dravidian

I am not sure that with several thousand years of racial mixing you can tell your Aryan genes apart from Austro-asiatic or Dravidian genes. But what if we sequence your DNA and find that your are X% Aryan and (100-X)% Dravidian. How dependent is your preference to X?
Reply
#6
Dear Moderators,

The original thread "Do caste names propagate the caste divide?" has morphed in to discussion on "Dravidian nationalism".

Can this be split it in to two threads?
Reply
#7
[quote='Gayaisbrown' pid='7423' dateline='1349918022']
[quote]All of you are looking at the caste name removal from completely different perspective from dravidian movement.[/quote]

[quote]
Yes, because you see Dravidian movement is not universally applicable all over India or the world. .[/quote]

But I see for what is applicable to Tamil Nadu, Ap, Karnataka and kerala... Whatever it may be, I am completely against imposing of caste name removal over peoples who don't wish... But I argue caste names are alien to Tamil or dravidian, so I advocate for removal of caste names, certainly wont impose, if I do so am not humanitarian and rationalist...

[quote]Another important cause, for advocating to remove caste name is because, its Hindu religion introduced culture... whereas tamil community or dravidian community are not casteist in nature, during early sangam period.[/quote]



[quote]
That's rich considering the various caste mentions in Sangam literature. Your claim is a complete fabrication similar to Hindutvadi Out of India migration theory..[/quote]

Don't worry what am saying is not like the hinduthvavaadhis...


.[quote]
Caste in Sangam Literature

Kannagi spares Brahmins

"The God of Fire appeared before her and awaited her instructions. Kannagi told him, 'Spare Brahmins, virtuous men, cows, chaste women, old people and children and consume the rest/ The city was enveloped by flame all round."

[/quote]

What you quoted above are all saying about late sangam period. The sangam period which is said to caste free was Early sangam and Middle sangam...see this http://m.thehindu.com/life-and-style/soc...15017.ece/

and

http://www.soas.ac.uk/research/publicati...e46109.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJcfM8ahWKI&feature=plcpSudalaimuththu Palaniappan

There are four parts of interview is there in tamil, those who know tamil can watch...

A seminar on ‘Casteless society of Tamils in Sangam Age’
During the Sangam age, Tamil society was casteless and the ancestors of the Dalits were respected warriors, priests and bards and were considered auspicious, said S. Palaniyappan, an engineer turned Tamil scholar, in Madurai recently.

He was addressing historians and archaeologists at a special lecture on ‘Early Social History – A Multi Disciplinary Approach’ at Pandya Nadu Centre for Historical Research .

In his lecture, Palaniappan said the word ‘Pulaiya’ was misinterpreted as untouchables or low-caste people. But it is related to the word ‘Polivu’, meaning flourishing and auspiciousness .

“They were not considered untouchables. In other words, untouchability was not part of the indigenous Tamil tradition,” he said. The caste system in Tamil Nadu was a borrowed factor that established itself after the Sangam period. One particular verse in ‘Puranaanuru’, sung by a Pandya king, Arya Padai Kadantha Nedunchezhiyan (he who conquered the Aryan Northern Army), the use of the phrase ‘vetrumai therintha naarpaal’ (four varnas) indicates that caste system was imported from the northern part of the country.

Arguing from his paper titled ‘On the unintended influence of Jainism on the development of caste in post-classical Tamil society’, he said that people often fail to explain terms like ‘izhipirappinon’ while taking about casteless Tamil society.

“Without explaining the word, we cannot prove that Tamil society is a casteless society,” he said. “My contribution is an explanation for that factor.”

According to the Jain concept, he explained, people who practise violence such as hunting or sacrificing animals are believed to be reborn as beings of a lower world. An alternate word for hell in Tamil is ‘izhikati’. People who will be born in hell are said to be ‘izhikati’ – an alternate word for ‘izhipirappinon’. “This talks not about the present birth but a birth after. Moreover, status of human being is given by the moralistic attitude of the people and not by birth.”

Dr.Palaniappan also explained various ‘misinterpreted’ terms like ‘Pulaiyan’ and ‘ilicinan’ and hoped that his research article published in International Journal of Jaina Studies would help Dalits recover their lost history.


[quote]but what is the problem for Gayathri if people wantedly shed their caste name to retain their dravidian or tamil identity???The next question she asks is why people are not opting for Intercaste, There are people supporting doing that also. What is the dire need for Gayathri to completely hate people who wanted shed their caste name??? Why do she wanna degrade them??? I won't accept the caste name removed person, boasts as if he achieved a great thing by doing this, but certainly a first step. I see ray hope in communities, when they loose caste names too. Which makes us to feel being out of Hindu religion clutches.
[/quote]

What? o_O

FYI inforamtion see below I joined the group very recently, after joining I hardly came into the group...

During my first visit, couple of days back I saw your thread about caste names, which sounded funny and misleading, so I left, since I was busy with some other work.
But just day before yesterday, when i rememebred about your thread and came back and had look into it. Which was very annoying for me. The kind of comparisons you placed were very disturbing for me. So I posted the comment immediately, because, I was annoyed too much to see a admin, that too a person with caste name behind arguing like this, thats why my comment would have been a bit more over board, but hard hitting I guess... I didnt had copy with me also to recheck. You people could have messaged me instead of blocking...

Notificationsx
Facebook notification+oo1hpvgz@facebookmail.com
Sep 28 (13 days ago)
to me
This message is:
Bulk Notifications Forums OtherNever show this againfacebook
Lalit Mohan Chawla approved your request to join the group Chennai Freethinkers.
capparisvivi22mcc@gmail.com-க்கு இந்த அஞ்சல் அனுப்பப்பட்டு விட்டது. உங்களுக்கு பேஸ்புக்கில் இருந்து வரும் இந்த வகை மின்னஞ்சல்கள் வேண்டாம் எனில் unsubscribeஐ சுட்டவும்
Facebook, Inc. Attention: Department 415 P.O Box 10005 Palo Alto CA 94303

[quote]
How many times have I said this on CFT, I don't care if someone decides to ditch their name--they can name themselves Appendix Twocup for all I care. What I do not appreciate is how often people bring up other people's last name to attack them and how some people completely deny religious and gender privilege in their names.
[/quote]

I didnt see such disclaimers you had put up, since am pretty new entrant, so far only twice i have visited the forum... On my second visit that too after my first comment, within an hour I was blocked...

A small message for blocking is what I was requesting...

Social network forums need not be such dictatorial... That too I took so much initiative and message to everyone none responded... sad...
Reply
#8
[quote='Captain Mandrake' pid='7424' dateline='1349919176']

[quote]
I think the Dravidian movement has mightily screwed up South Indians with a lot of linguistic[/quote]

Don't say everybody in south India woken up to the reality, only Tamil nadu, little bit karnataka and then kerala and Andhrites are least bothered staunch Hindus... The spread of dravidian identity is not enough... it should spread musch more... Which good for India. Celebration of diversity only brings in natural unity, acts of thrusting artificial unity is harmful and it suffocates the people...

[quote]
(Yes, they say that Tamil is the oldest language.)[/quote]

Yes that's one of the classical languages and still living language... what is your doubt in that????

[quote]
chauvinism[/quote]

Are Tamils more chauvenists than Hindi imperialists, who are killing Indian language diversity without making all 22 language of 8th schedule of national language... But the same Hindians will go to UN asking for addition of Hindi as additional official languiage of union. If the same is done by us TN and Karnataka you call us chauvenism... isn't there hipocricy with the Union Government??

If those 40 Tamils would have not died by self-imolating during anti-hindi imposition struggles, India would have not had the moral high ground for interfereing into the Bangladesh liberation war, after whom International Mother language day is being celebrated. Tamils always asked for equality between all languages... Today if many languages are living, its the great gift by Tamils who got self immolated, 100's who got killed by army.... After rememberence of these people who killed should be rememebered by celebrating "National Mother Language day" by Union government of India...

For all these service does Tamils deserve the tag chauvenism?????

[quote]
and racial (Yes they do think that South Indians are racially different from North Indians) superiority nonsense.
[/quote]

None thinks superiority over here... Actually many in AP and karnataka and TN eager to ape North Indians in their life style, language etc. We don't make arguements like superior or inferior, we need space for our languages to live and more than that equality....
[+] 1 user Likes envirovivek's post
Reply
#9
(11-Oct-2012, 08:50 AM)Captain Mandrake Wrote:
(11-Oct-2012, 08:24 AM)Gayaisbrown Wrote: There's a lot of good that came out of it as well, and I appreciate that. But yes--there are some unsavory aspects of it including psuedoscientific racial mumbo-jumbo, which I wish we'd do away with.

I have never looked at the Dravidian movement closely. Just checked out Periyar on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periyar_E._V._Ramasamy). Honestly I am not very impressed. Opposition to Hindi is a bit silly, if he can accept English why can't he accept Hindi? The anti-brahminism is downright scary. Almost like anti-semitism.

Anti-Brahmanism is need of the hour then... Only because of that Today affirmative actions are possible with the help of Communal GO, first Indian constituititional amendment....

Quote:Opposition to Hindi is silly????

Only because of this opposition, today South India is IT hub- Mohadas Pai Infosys....

Imposition of this regional language Hindi till this date all over the country should be seriously condemned... If anyone wishes to know the importance of this you can visit our group...

https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/Promo...cEquality/
India is gifted with diverse languages. The conservation of those languages depends on how equally the languages are tre...ated. Though India doesnt have national language, we could often come across media, academicians and ignorant citizens saying Hindi is national Language of India.

This notion Hindi is national language makes many in this country to succumb to the Hindi imposition going on through governmental and private bodies. For any Non-Hindi speaker of India, Hindi is an hurdle if its imposed on their livelihoods. Which leads to economic, social and political disadvantages to the community which is at the receiving end.

For any social justice to happen in this society we need basic data collection about the issues. Based on the data collected we could move forward for consensus building among various linguistic groups in the society. Hence we all from various linguistic setup should get together on a common platform with scientific rigor and the goal of attaining linguistic equality in our country.

[+] 2 users Like envirovivek's post
Reply
#10
(11-Oct-2012, 09:15 AM)Captain Mandrake Wrote:
Quote:I vehemently appose all dravidian parties in TN, I support only Tamil Nationalists parties in TN, which is the need of the hour for TN

What is the difference between Dravidian parties and Tamil Nationalists parties? And will the Tamil Nationalist party kick the telugu speaking Envirovivek out of TN?

Excellent question!!!!

Irrespective of, weather they kick me out or not, I support Tamils ruling Tamil Nadu as soon as possible, like Telugus in AP. Kannadigas in Karnataka, Malyalis in kerala.
Reply
#11
[quote='Captain Mandrake' pid='7430' dateline='1349927141']
[quote]I vehemently appose all dravidian parties in TN, I support only Tamil Nationalists parties in TN, which is the need of the hour for TN[/quote]

[quote]
What is the difference between Dravidian parties and Tamil Nationalists parties? [/quote]


At present two big Dravidian parties are there they both are corrupt... And Two small dravidian parties are there, of which one is cinema hero(He is not so brilliant) and another one brilliant and comitted Tamil leader.

But all these four dravidian party leaders are non-Tamils.

2 Tamil Nationalists parties just few years back started, after Tamil genocide in srilanka. Which should grow further and come to power. Hoping so...
Reply
#12
(11-Oct-2012, 09:43 AM)Captain Mandrake Wrote: Vivek,

Quote:I dono weather the Early Tamil Sangam age community was absolute eagalitarian are not, but its certainly more eagalitarian than the varanasrama dharma bound hindu society.

Quote:First of all I don't know what period can be called the Early Tamil Sangam age. But for the sake of argument let us say that this period existed free of Aryan influence. You seem to concede that in this Early Tamil Sangam period there must have been some sort of social stratification but that this stratification was not as bad as the caste system. Can you provide evidence for that claim? Also, can you tell me who were those in the lowest strata of the society during the Early Sangam period? What is the status of their descendants today?

From the excerpt pasted below from this paper suggests that there is no untouchability in Tamil society. Even during the period of Jaina Influence in Tamil southern India. Jaina Influence happened in Mid or Late sangam period.

[align=justify]The lack of any association of ritual pollution with ‘pulai’ suggests untouchability
could not have been indigenous to the speakers of Tamil and other Dravidian languages.
When there is no purity/pollution difference between Brahmins and pulaiyaṉ as portrayed
in the Classical Tamil texts, there is no reason to assume the presence of a caste system in
the Classical Tamil society.
In other words, there were no despised low castes or untouchables in the ancient
Tamil society.115 For more than a millennium, these facts have been forgotten by the
Tamil tradition. Tamil scholars, as a result of uncritical reliance on medieval
commentators and lack of awareness of the impact of Jainism-induced semantic changes
involving key ancient Tamil terms like ‘pulaiyaṉ’, have failed to realise the true state of
ancient Tamil society. The implications of the argument developed in this study are
enormous. The Dravidian speakers as a whole should have had no indigenous notion of
untouchability or a caste system. To the extent that parts of the population in regions
currently dominated by speakers of Indo-Aryan languages were also originally Dravidian
speaking, those parts of the Indo-Aryan South Asia also should have been originally free
of untouchability. In short, the Scheduled Castes or Dalits and the lower castes of those regions dominated by speakers of Indo-Aryan languages must not have been considered
low-born originally. But for the information provided by the Classical Tamil literature
and especially the poem by the poetess Auvaiyār, the true history of the lower castes of
South India and perhaps India as a whole might never have been realised.
There is a need for new critical studies of ancient Tamil texts using a rigorous
inter-disciplinary approach involving fields such as epigraphy, religion, and linguistics.


Quote:In his lecture, Palaniappan said the word ‘Pulaiya’ was misinterpreted as untouchables or low-caste people. But it is related to the word ‘Polivu’, meaning flourishing and auspiciousness .

Quote:Sounds made up. This reminds me of muslims saying that virgins in the "72 virgins in paradise for the martyr" was a mistranslation of raisins.

This is peer reviewed journal : "International Journal of Jaina Studies"... he is from South Asia Research and Information Institute (SARII) organisation.

Quote:For me first preference is Austro-Asiatic and second is Dravidian

I am not sure that with several thousand years of racial mixing you can tell your Aryan genes apart from Austro-asiatic or Dravidian genes. But what if we sequence your DNA and find that your are X% Aryan and (100-X)% Dravidian. How dependent is your preference to X?

Irrespective of phenotype and genotype of mine, it can be any proportion aryan dravidian mixture, I am more inclined to support the linguistic groups which are getting oppressed in India, by Sanskrit and Hindi.... When I say I am Dravidian, I mean more linguistically than the human features.
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Cricket and nationalism in India (and Pakistan) Captain Mandrake 0 4,195 29-Sep-2012, 11:53 AM
Last Post: Captain Mandrake



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)