Dravidian Nationalism
#13
(11-Oct-2012, 10:47 AM)envirovivek Wrote:
(11-Oct-2012, 08:50 AM)Captain Mandrake Wrote:
(11-Oct-2012, 08:24 AM)Gayaisbrown Wrote: There's a lot of good that came out of it as well, and I appreciate that. But yes--there are some unsavory aspects of it including psuedoscientific racial mumbo-jumbo, which I wish we'd do away with.

I have never looked at the Dravidian movement closely. Just checked out Periyar on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periyar_E._V._Ramasamy). Honestly I am not very impressed. Opposition to Hindi is a bit silly, if he can accept English why can't he accept Hindi? The anti-brahminism is downright scary. Almost like anti-semitism.

Anti-Brahmanism is need of the hour then... Only because of that Today affirmative actions are possible with the help of Communal GO, first Indian constituititional amendment....

Quote:Opposition to Hindi is silly????

Only because of this opposition, today South India is IT hub- Mohadas Pai Infosys....

Imposition of this regional language Hindi till this date all over the country should be seriously condemned... If anyone wishes to know the importance of this you can visit our group...

https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/Promo...cEquality/
India is gifted with diverse languages. The conservation of those languages depends on how equally the languages are tre...ated. Though India doesnt have national language, we could often come across media, academicians and ignorant citizens saying Hindi is national Language of India.

This notion Hindi is national language makes many in this country to succumb to the Hindi imposition going on through governmental and private bodies. For any Non-Hindi speaker of India, Hindi is an hurdle if its imposed on their livelihoods. Which leads to economic, social and political disadvantages to the community which is at the receiving end.

For any social justice to happen in this society we need basic data collection about the issues. Based on the data collected we could move forward for consensus building among various linguistic groups in the society. Hence we all from various linguistic setup should get together on a common platform with scientific rigor and the goal of attaining linguistic equality in our country.


http://thegabbar.com/tag/padosan/
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#14
envirovivek Wrote:Only because of this opposition, today South India is IT hub- Mohadas Pai Infosys....

Citations for this claim. Being in an IT industry, I have my reasons to doubt this heavily.

Imposition of Hindi is wrong and it is obvious. But enforcing hard boundaries based on language (claims like Tamil Nadu should be governed by Tamils etc.) is against fundamental tenets of constitution and "being a country". It would be better to have separate countries, rather than enforcing such rules.

By the way Dravidian Nationalism sounds a hell lot like Hindutva ideology. Something like "the true vedic" were really good. Even if we assume that dravidians back then were truly egalitarian, we don't have to imitate what they did. We need to imitate their values at best. And establish society based on modern foundations.
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#15
(12-Oct-2012, 12:00 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: [quote="envirovivek"]
Only because of this opposition, today South India is IT hub- Mohadas Pai Infosys....

Quote:Citations for this claim. Being in an IT industry, I have my reasons to doubt this heavily.

I heard or read this news sometime back in our group some one was sharing news with such statement. I didn't bookmark it. I asked for it again in the Linguistic equality group again. Let us wait for the response...

For time being see this link.

In which the blogger says it differently. But what I heard in our group could be interpretation of it, anyhow let's wait anyone replies in our group...

Whatever it may be, Mohandas Pai says, English Language was key for IT and outsourcing growth, Which was boosted up British rule, What I would interpret is Anti- Hindi Imposition agitation paved the way for retaining English as official language of Union, which resulted in English education growth in southern states.


Quote:Imposition of Hindi is wrong and it is obvious.

Thank you... I hope rationalists in the northern states would see the need for accepting all 22 official languages of union as official language. Which is very important for celebrating and respecting diversity. I am not only saying this as a Linguistic equality seeker even as an Ecologist, who believes in functional diversity.

Quote:But enforcing hard boundaries based on language (claims like Tamil Nadu should be governed by Tamils etc.)

What is wrong in aspiring for that??? A particular majority community which thinks the corrupted old parties in the name of dravidian identity Telugu land lords and other non-tamils are occupying Chief Minister post.

Who rules Kerala, Karnataka and Andhra???

I as a Telugu living in TN, I don't see anything wrong in that, and Tamil community, which just few year back encountered worlds unreported genocide in Srilanka would certainly aspire tighten up its political platform, to make its politics very targeted.... A community which was subjected to genocide would certainly won't treat their fellow Telugu brother's as outsiders since we are so united. We accept and understand the sensitivities of Tamil People.

Moreover as a telugu living in TN i could foresee a turbulent future for people of TN, since foreign policy of union government is hostile to the interests of Tamils, at such turbulent situation, a non-tamil sitting in high office of TN and making decisions against Tamils, under the pressure from union government would eventually lead to bitterness among to various language speaking communities. I say this not only in concern with Karunanidhi, a queue is waiting behind, VAIKO and Vijaykanth.

When it comes to weather Tamils are really language chauvinists are not?? you could see the Track record, A telugu Karunanidhi, A malyalee M.G.R and Kannadiga Jayalalithaa. People are not chauvenists as it is being projected by the national media, which made even a rationalist in our forum to accuse Tamils as Racist and Chauvenists, without even knowing the ground realities. I could understand That's what national media feeds in about Tamils.

To be much more clear, so far in this Indian state, Various language people got attacked during linguistic riots, even for that matter a MLA got slap on the face also. So far Tamil migrants got beaten up in kerala, Bengaluru and Mumbai. As far as I know there was not even a single incident in which Tamils attacked non-tamils. Once in NDTV Big fight debate, the anchor said, Even in the height of anti-hindi agitation, none got attacked in Tamil Nadu. Instead their form of protest was self-immolation for attaining their birth right of conserving and using their language, out of which whole country benefitted in attaining atleast minimum linguistic equality which we have today. Does these people deserve such an accusations, racist and chauvenists????

Quote:is against fundamental tenets of constitution and "being a country".

None made this as a rule in TN state, Infact its me who said a Tamilian should rule atleast after last 40 years. A Telugu asking for a Tamil to rule my state is it chauvenistic???? I know how telugu landlords reaching to the power.

Moreover lndia is union of nationalities, yes a country and federal setup. And after linguistic state re-organisation, language based Identity formation is reality. Who is cause for linguistic state reorganisation??? Potti-sriramulu in AP.

Tamils aspiring or a telugu saying a Tamilian should rule Tamil Nadu is against constitution means?, then what is the meaning for Telengana people asking for seperate state for ruling themselves?? Why chattisgarh was formed??? Jharkand??? None can dictate from union government, regional problems and needs decide why, when and who should rule. This is actual democracy and decentralization of powers. We should allow diversity to flourish and India is not a Monolith. very beauty of India is its diversity.

Quote:It would be better to have separate countries, rather than enforcing such rules.

you mistook my words, there is no rule, people aspiring after 40 years of rule by non-tamils. Under each leaders period they lost some some rights they would have been given. To understand all these dynamics one should have in-depth understanding and day to day follow up Tamil Nadu politics from grass root level. The same is the response for understanding Telengana struggle too.

Asking people to get separate country for each and every grass root problem related struggles is, a belittling of true democracy. A kind of Trivialization. India is a big country needs huge effort to understand sensitivities and needs of each state.

Quote:By the way Dravidian Nationalism sounds a hell lot like Hindutva ideology.


I wonder how a Rationalists forum Nirmukta is so hostile to Dravidian movement and Dravidian Identity itself???? What makes everyone to look disgustingly upon Dravidian movement. It forerunners of rationalism In colonial India to current modern India. It's is the first organisation which advocated for Atheism as big peoples mass movement as far as I know. I thought Nirmukta will be welcoming group for fellow rationalists out there in the country. (I was planning for engaging in debates of Nirmuktha since longtime, I was waiting to settle in my life first, since am still doing my education, but this caste name debates got me in so early and irresistibly)

When it comes to Dravidian Identity, I don't mean Dravidian genetic purity or racial purity or anything such sort. Which is unnecessary for us. For us conserving linguistic diversity and providing equality of languages and equality for identity all these are what we demand.

Quote:"Something like "the true vedic" were really good.

The need for saying True Tamil sangam society or dravidian society is the influencing argument to make Hinduthvised Tamils or telugus to understand that they are not Hindus and they didn't had the burden of castes then etc.... And you may ask what is the need for digging the past and gloating about past, what is the need for Dravidian Identity, yes need is there because, we want to conserve our languages, conserve Tamil heritage archaeological sites and Temples etc... Dravidian Identity is Very Important for us through which we wanted to get out of Sanskri supremacy and Hindu religion... We don't want sanskrit hegemonic people to call Sanskrit is mother of all languages including Tamil. We want Tamil to be allowed to chant in Tamil Temples, which were built by hard labour of Tamils. None should say Tamil a untouchable language for temples.

Quote:Even if we assume that dravidians back then were truly egalitarian,

There is no need for assumption, that's being proved by new studies these days. One such article I posted yesterday. If Nirmukta thinks even the Peer reviewed article is not fit enough as proof to say Tamils didn't had caste system in Sangam periods, I dono what else to say. I asked for proofs from linguist friends too.

I dono what meaning all of you get into mind for the word Eagaliterian. According to me I used it to say Tamil's didnt had varnasrama dharma based Caste system or untouchability then...

Quote:we don't have to imitate what they did. We need to imitate their values at best. And establish society based on modern foundations.

Exactly, thats what we too say. That's the fight of Periyar through self-respect movement. That's what we educated dravidian or Tamil Identity seekers also say. Its because of Self-respect movement, the moment you say Dravidian Identity- the attached notion is Rationalism and Rationalists. marriages without Brahmins was called self-respect marriages.

The problem is the concept Dravidianism and dravidian identity is not introduced much in Northern state curriculas. Even for that matter I myself came to know what is Dravidian and Aryan divide and even about Dravidian Movement and periyar in detaIL in the year 2010-2011. Only the pain about Tamil Genocide in may 2009 made me to search for old histories. None of Tamil classmates and friends since my childhood to college days we never spoke about all these identities, that's the level of social and political awareness prevailing in TN state after the Death of periyar. Till this date none realises importance of socio political awareness.... The powerful seeds which sown by dravidian movement in TN is reflective in TN till date to an extent, Dalit parties, dravidian parties and Tamil Nationalist parties everyone keeps acknowledging importance of periyar's ideologies, only because of that BJP couldn make any foothold in TN.

Its strange for me to see a Rationalism forum have lot of hostility against Dravidian movement.

I appeal rationalist Friends out there in North-India we are not for claiming this Dravidian or Tamil identity to say we are superior or inferior, we just say its our identity and let us to have our space and equality. Dravidian Movement is for rationalism. If time permits you can have look at Dravidian movement history, I don't say it was perfect movement it had its flaws, drawbacks and mistakes too...

I have important works to complete I would be responding very delayed here after. So keep posted your criticisms or queries if you have any.

I wish moderator could change the name of this thread to Dravidian Movement.

Thank you,

With Regards,
Vivek Babu
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#16
(12-Oct-2012, 06:36 AM)envirovivek Wrote: For time being see this link.

In which the blogger says it differently. But what I heard in our group could be interpretation of it, anyhow let's wait anyone replies in our group...

Whatever it may be, Mohandas Pai says, English Language was key for IT and outsourcing growth, Which was boosted up British rule, What I would interpret is Anti- Hindi Imposition agitation paved the way for retaining English as official language of Union, which resulted in English education growth in southern states.

By that logic, Karnataka would have much lesser number of English speakers than Tamil Nadu. But Bangalore was the where the IT hubs started.

It was about English, but not to the extent that Maharashtra or Bengal could not compete (the metros in this place are pretty decent in English compared to Bangalore). It had to do a lot about the state laws then.

(12-Oct-2012, 06:36 AM)envirovivek Wrote: What is wrong in aspiring for that??? A particular majority community which thinks the corrupted old parties in the name of dravidian identity Telugu land lords and other non-tamils are occupying Chief Minister post.
Who rules Kerala, Karnataka and Andhra???

I as a Telugu living in TN, I don't see anything wrong in that, and Tamil community, which just few year back encountered worlds unreported genocide in Srilanka would certainly aspire tighten up its political platform, to make its politics very targeted.... A community which was subjected to genocide would certainly won't treat their fellow Telugu brother's as outsiders since we are so united. We accept and understand the sensitivities of Tamil People.

Moreover as a telugu living in TN i could foresee a turbulent future for people of TN, since foreign policy of union government is hostile to the interests of Tamils, at such turbulent situation, a non-tamil sitting in high office of TN and making decisions against Tamils, under the pressure from union government would eventually lead to bitterness among to various language speaking communities. I say this not only in concern with Karunanidhi, a queue is waiting behind, VAIKO and Vijaykanth.

When it comes to weather Tamils are really language chauvinists are not?? you could see the Track record, A telugu Karunanidhi, A malyalee M.G.R and Kannadiga Jayalalithaa. People are not chauvenists as it is being projected by the national media, which made even a rationalist in our forum to accuse Tamils as Racist and Chauvenists, without even knowing the ground realities. I could understand That's what national media feeds in about Tamils.

To be much more clear, so far in this Indian state, Various language people got attacked during linguistic riots, even for that matter a MLA got slap on the face also. So far Tamil migrants got beaten up in kerala, Bengaluru and Mumbai. As far as I know there was not even a single incident in which Tamils attacked non-tamils. Once in NDTV Big fight debate, the anchor said, Even in the height of anti-hindi agitation, none got attacked in Tamil Nadu. Instead their form of protest was self-immolation for attaining their birth right of conserving and using their language, out of which whole country benefitted in attaining atleast minimum linguistic equality which we have today. Does these people deserve such an accusations, racist and chauvenists????

The interesting part is that in such a long ramble you still haven't answered the question. "Whats wrong?" is not an answer. I can use the same answer against any superstition such as umpire jumping on nelson's number. So basically its a null answer.

Still the wrong part is communalism and regionalism. Instead of fostering the spirit of cultural representation you are talking about language representation. And please do not be mistaken to equate culture with language. That would be a total digression and I am in no mood to discuss that here.


(12-Oct-2012, 06:36 AM)envirovivek Wrote:
Quote:is against fundamental tenets of constitution and "being a country".

None made this as a rule in TN state, Infact its me who said a Tamilian should rule atleast after last 40 years. A Telugu asking for a Tamil to rule my state is it chauvenistic???? I know how telugu landlords reaching to the power.

Moreover lndia is union of nationalities, yes a country and federal setup. And after linguistic state re-organisation, language based Identity formation is reality. Who is cause for linguistic state reorganisation??? Potti-sriramulu in AP.

Tamils aspiring or a telugu saying a Tamilian should rule Tamil Nadu is against constitution means?, then what is the meaning for Telengana people asking for seperate state for ruling themselves?? Why chattisgarh was formed??? Jharkand??? None can dictate from union government, regional problems and needs decide why, when and who should rule. This is actual democracy and decentralization of powers. We should allow diversity to flourish and India is not a Monolith. very beauty of India is its diversity.

The horrifying thing in this comment is the stereotypes that you are spreading. The probability of a landlord being "telugu" might be high... But that doesn't make every telugu person a landlord. Again, this is the very typical thinking that needs to be challenged. No landlord, be it Telugu or Assamese, should be "ruling" anybody as long as s/he doesn't understand the requirements of the common man. Language has no role to play here. Its knowledge about the roots that matters.

(12-Oct-2012, 06:36 AM)envirovivek Wrote:
Quote:It would be better to have separate countries, rather than enforcing such rules.

you mistook my words, there is no rule, people aspiring after 40 years of rule by non-tamils. Under each leaders period they lost some some rights they would have been given. To understand all these dynamics one should have in-depth understanding and day to day follow up Tamil Nadu politics from grass root level. The same is the response for understanding Telengana struggle too.

Asking people to get separate country for each and every grass root problem related struggles is, a belittling of true democracy. A kind of Trivialization. India is a big country needs huge effort to understand sensitivities and needs of each state.

Thats true and imposing "identities" that are not NATIONAL is also not in national interest.


(12-Oct-2012, 06:36 AM)envirovivek Wrote:
Quote:By the way Dravidian Nationalism sounds a hell lot like Hindutva ideology.


I wonder how a Rationalists forum Nirmukta is so hostile to Dravidian movement and Dravidian Identity itself???? What makes everyone to look disgustingly upon Dravidian movement. It forerunners of rationalism In colonial India to current modern India. It's is the first organisation which advocated for Atheism as big peoples mass movement as far as I know. I thought Nirmukta will be welcoming group for fellow rationalists out there in the country. (I was planning for engaging in debates of Nirmuktha since longtime, I was waiting to settle in my life first, since am still doing my education, but this caste name debates got me in so early and irresistibly)

Let me be absolutely clear. We are freethinkers here and as a consequence atheists. So the foundations lie somewhere else. So if somebody is pushing atheism while not being "rational" or "humanistic" freethinkers are not going to buy it.

(12-Oct-2012, 06:36 AM)envirovivek Wrote:
Quote:"Something like "the true vedic" were really good.

The need for saying True Tamil sangam society or dravidian society is the influencing argument to make Hinduthvised Tamils or telugus to understand that they are not Hindus and they didn't had the burden of castes then etc.... And you may ask what is the need for digging the past and gloating about past, what is the need for Dravidian Identity, yes need is there because, we want to conserve our languages, conserve Tamil heritage archaeological sites and Temples etc... Dravidian Identity is Very Important for us through which we wanted to get out of Sanskri supremacy and Hindu religion... We don't want sanskrit hegemonic people to call Sanskrit is mother of all languages including Tamil. We want Tamil to be allowed to chant in Tamil Temples, which were built by hard labour of Tamils. None should say Tamil a untouchable language for temples.

Your logic seems to be "only a tamil person can understand importance of tamil". That is outrightly fallacious. Anybody reasonably witted, who understands a culture, can understand the importance of heritage preservation.

And the worse is that you want to dispel an imposition through another imposition. If you wan't Tamil to be recognized in Temples, educate the masses about it. The solution is not to "have just a tamil govt so that it will understand these things". So the need is to spread "rationalism" and not "awareness about some identity",.

(12-Oct-2012, 06:36 AM)envirovivek Wrote:
Quote:we don't have to imitate what they did. We need to imitate their values at best. And establish society based on modern foundations.

Exactly, thats what we too say. That's the fight of Periyar through self-respect movement. That's what we educated dravidian or Tamil Identity seekers also say. Its because of Self-respect movement, the moment you say Dravidian Identity- the attached notion is Rationalism and Rationalists. marriages without Brahmins was called self-respect marriages.

The problem is the concept Dravidianism and dravidian identity is not introduced much in Northern state curriculas. Even for that matter I myself came to know what is Dravidian and Aryan divide and even about Dravidian Movement and periyar in detaIL in the year 2010-2011. Only the pain about Tamil Genocide in may 2009 made me to search for old histories. None of Tamil classmates and friends since my childhood to college days we never spoke about all these identities, that's the level of social and political awareness prevailing in TN state after the Death of periyar. Till this date none realises importance of socio political awareness.... The powerful seeds which sown by dravidian movement in TN is reflective in TN till date to an extent, Dalit parties, dravidian parties and Tamil Nationalist parties everyone keeps acknowledging importance of periyar's ideologies, only because of that BJP couldn make any foothold in TN.

Its strange for me to see a Rationalism forum have lot of hostility against Dravidian movement.

I appeal rationalist Friends out there in North-India we are not for claiming this Dravidian or Tamil identity to say we are superior or inferior, we just say its our identity and let us to have our space and equality. Dravidian Movement is for rationalism. If time permits you can have look at Dravidian movement history, I don't say it was perfect movement it had its flaws, drawbacks and mistakes too...

I have important works to complete I would be responding very delayed here after. So keep posted your criticisms or queries if you have any.

I wish moderator could change the name of this thread to Dravidian Movement.

Thank you,

With Regards,
Vivek Babu

If you read your comments again, it will be pretty much clear whats wrong with that thought process. You fall back again "on our identity" blah blah. Why don't you try promoting "values" rather than "identities".

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#17
[/quote]


http://thegabbar.com/tag/padosan/

[/quote]

Thank you very much for Nice article, which calls for shedding these inbuilt prejudices about each other...

I could see Kannadiga brothers cracking down stronger against Hindi Imposition in near future. Who are worst and horribly affected by language imposition.

When it comes to Kannada films, they get bitter blow not only from Hindi, but also from Telugu and Tamil... Competition Comission of India-CCI recently cracked down on the Kannada film Industry for banning Hindi big budget movies releasing in Karnataka. According to me there must be some space given for Kannada film industry to survive. CCI should not force too much. Film industries are obviously livelihood generators.

According to me Bollywood Film Industry should stop stretching its muscle throughout the country for mere business. Other languages too should survive. If one Film Industry survives, Job market in films will concentrate in one Industry. If many film Industries develop livelihood opportunity spreads evenly in all states. I don't know how much does Bhojpuri, Punjabi film industries are suffering due to this single mafia ridden Bollywood.

The very important and ridiculous thing which this Bollywood Industry does is, They conduct Indian International Film Festivals all over the world, in which non-hindi films are not being allowed to be part of it. Because of which foreigners were able to identifying only Bollywood as Indian. They don't even know there are other languages in this country, and they too make movies. I don't say this Bollywood domination is being done by government or by Hindi speaking people, but the greedy business interest of Bollywood film makers does that. After all these Bollywood film business makers decides and dictates how united the country should move forward.

India is lagging a lot in socio-linguistics, Linguistic economics and many other language fields, No research and policy evaluations with respect to languages. India thinks Language diversities are burden for the country, but fails to notice language diversity is source of livelihood opportunity. For example if one movie industry is there, say for example 10 lyric writers gets job, if 10 or 20 Movie Industries are there we will have 10 lyric writers for each industry. That's how jobs are created, not by killing diversity. Here in Sweden the harry-potter novels gets translated within 2 months after it gets released in English. Which has huge market. Again Translation and republishing is another sector of livelihood. If we try to speak these realities we get branded as Chauvinists.....

If Indian government bodies and academia don't take Socio-linguistic research or linguistic economics seriously then India is waiting to see lots and lots of small political groups dictating and engaging in street violence during language fights and language identity fights... No use in calling them names then, they sense the inequalities faster than any government bodies or academia. They fill the vacuum faster..... The so called patriotic Indians who wanna build single language bound India fail to see the realities and stand dumb.

Thank you,

With Regards,

Vivek Babu
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#18
(12-Oct-2012, 08:20 AM)envirovivek Wrote: India is lagging a lot in socio-linguistics, Linguistic economics and many other language fields, No research and policy evaluations with respect to languages. India thinks Language diversities are burden for the country, but fails to notice language diversity is source of livelihood opportunity. For example if one movie industry is there, say for example 10 lyric writers gets job, if 10 or 20 Movie Industries are there we will have 10 lyric writers for each industry. That's how jobs are created, not by killing diversity. Here in Sweden the harry-potter novels gets translated within 2 months after it gets released in English. Which has huge market. Again Translation and republishing is another sector of livelihood. If we try to speak these realities we get branded as Chauvinists.....

Citations please. Because in one place you claim that "knowledge of English" was key to IT industry success and at the other place you say job creation happens because of exact opposite reason.

And your stand sounds exactly like anybody who opposes introduction of new technology on the grounds of reduced labor opportunities. Your argument about movie industry is totally fallacious. Assuming we have just one language based film industry doesn't in any way mean reduction in job opportunities, because its not going to result in "lesser number of movies". The market space remaining constant, there will just be need of "film centres" across India and not centered in specific states, which anyway should be done for cultural representation.

None of the industry other than literature is language dependent. And people interested in literature will still need translations etc. There is no need to enforce the interest of language on common man who is more interested in it as a tool for communication.
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#19
(12-Oct-2012, 07:17 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote:
(12-Oct-2012, 06:36 AM)envirovivek Wrote: For time being see this link.
By that logic, Karnataka would have much lesser number of English speakers than Tamil Nadu. But Bangalore was the where the IT hubs started.

It was about English, but not to the extent that Maharashtra or Bengal could not compete (the metros in this place are pretty decent in English compared to Bangalore). It had to do a lot about the state laws then.

The general impression is south Indians occupy major share of IT job market both in India and other english speaking foreign countires... Its not about where the industries are placed... Being an IT, you would be better to say is it so...


Quote:The interesting part is that in such a long ramble you still haven't answered the question. "Whats wrong?" is not an answer. I can use the same answer against any superstition such as umpire jumping on nelson's number. So basically its a null answer.

Still the wrong part is communalism and regionalism. Instead of fostering the spirit of cultural representation you are talking about language representation. And please do not be mistaken to equate culture with language. That would be a total digression and I am in no mood to discuss that here.

It look ramble for u, but I had to write in detail because, I wanna convince a free thinker in our forum who accused Tamils as racist, chauvenists etc.... Sorry for writing ramble in reponse to your questions. Its not that I don't want to answer your question, I don't know what answer you want. As a humanist I feel I stand for right cause, giving voice for the affected community. U say a lot umpire, jumping, superstition, nelson number... I didn't even understand even one... If you think what you said is important please elaborate...

Yes what I mean is cultural representation only..... But I don't know, why shouldn't we equate culture with language??? give me reply only when you are feeling like giving...


Quote:The horrifying thing in this comment is the stereotypes that you are spreading. The probability of a landlord being "telugu" might be high... But that doesn't make every telugu person a landlord.


If I didn't understand that, I would have not mentioned each time, Telugu Landlords, I am very much aware of such consequences that's why I consciously differentiate Telugus in general and Telugu landlords.... Therefore I am in no way involved in stereotyping... Hope am clear now...

Quote:Again, this is the very typical thinking that needs to be challenged. No landlord, be it Telugu or Assamese, should be "ruling" anybody as long as s/he doesn't understand the requirements of the common man. Language has no role to play here. Its knowledge about the roots that matters.

Language certainly has a role to play, especially in Tamil Nadu because, its they who encountered the genocide because of Linguistic identities. At-least until they get justice for this genocide and Eezham struggle. What I contend is understanding comes only when one knows the culture and sensibilities of that particular language speaking people. Therefore always best bet is to trust a person from their linguistic group than non-group... If a non-group heads the state, during testing or troubling times he may surrender to the pressure from union government, why the heck I should suffer for these language speaking people. Knowledge about roots comes only when one lives in those roots, not just by observation... one got to experience...


Quote:Thats true and imposing "identities" that are not NATIONAL is also not in national interest.

That's true, but what should a particular group of people's pains agonies are not understood by so called NATION under the guise of National Interest, that too even after the huge blood shed and genocide, on top of it the so called Nation also has blood stains in its hands....

Quote:Let me be absolutely clear. We are freethinkers here and as a consequence atheists. So the foundations lie somewhere else. So if somebody is pushing atheism while not being "rational" or "humanistic" freethinkers are not going to buy it.

But Dravidian Movement also has free thinking as its fundamental component... What irrational thing does Dravidian movement or I as a supporter displayed, what made you to come to a conclusion we are not freethinkers. In what way we are non-humanistic???? I think Dravidian Identity is hurting for you, is it??? Dravidian Identity is just a Tag to research and rework lost dravidian cultures and adapt it to modern world.... Diverse Identity need not be considered as threat to national unity. When a nation allows rationally developed Identities to flourish there is scope for unity, if nation tries to destroy or tries to brush under the carpet, imposes identities then only artificial unity is evolved, not natural, which comes out celebrating diversity.

(12-Oct-2012, 06:36 AM)envirovivek Wrote:
Quote:"Something like "the true vedic" were really good.

The need for saying True Tamil sangam society or dravidian society is the influencing argument to make Hinduthvised Tamils or telugus to understand that they are not Hindus and they didn't had the burden of castes then etc.... And you may ask what is the need for digging the past and gloating about past, what is the need for Dravidian Identity, yes need is there because, we want to conserve our languages, conserve Tamil heritage archaeological sites and Temples etc... Dravidian Identity is Very Important for us through which we wanted to get out of Sanskri supremacy and Hindu religion... We don't want sanskrit hegemonic people to call Sanskrit is mother of all languages including Tamil. We want Tamil to be allowed to chant in Tamil Temples, which were built by hard labour of Tamils. None should say Tamil a untouchable language for temples.

Quote:Your logic seems to be "only a tamil person can understand importance of tamil".

Understanding anyone can do through reading writing and listening, but only living will carry the culture forward organically. Culture is organic, not physical, cant be moved structurally... Tamils culture could be preserved only by they living in such a way, others will be busy living in their own cultural way.... I cant bring in people for rent to live in Tamil lifestyle and to carry forward the culture. When I say Tamil culture, enjoying Tamil arts, literature, heritage etc... More than that not every body can conserve everything, everybody will be busy concentrating on their own cultures, so Tamils only can conserve their culture, likewise Telugu. In a decentralized way diverse people conserve diverse cultures. Weather other people understands importance of Tamil or not is the need, weather the people who live as a Tamil, does he understood and does he carries it correctly is very important, when one makes sure of this, puts an effort for this, then Identity comes. Tamil Identity, Linguistic Identity, Only through such understanding, this one of the oldest classical language is still surviving. No wonder 2500 yrs back written Tamil epic Silappadikaaram, written Jaina sage, Ilangovadigal dreamed and advocated for Tamil Nationalism asked for Unity between, Chera, Chozha and Pandia.

Quote:That is outrightly fallacious. Anybody reasonably witted, who understands a culture, can understand the importance of heritage preservation.

Without sensitizing the people how we gonna preserve culture and heritage. People can carry two Identities provided both are coexisting and relationships are smooth. Telugu and Indian for example...
Heritage is organic, not just physical preservation. And certainly anybody can understand and appreciate any number of cultures but a person can live single life at a time.

Quote:And the worse is that you want to dispel an imposition through another imposition. If you wan't Tamil to be recognized in Temples, educate the masses about it. The solution is not to "have just a tamil govt so that it will understand these things". So the need is to spread "rationalism" and not "awareness about some identity",.

Which is imposed??? the Identity Tamil is natural, at-least from Silappadikaaram point of view, this identity is 2500 yrs old. Just because a Telugu chooses makes love with is Telugu identity, it doesn't mean he going to loose his Indian identity. This is uncalled fear. This suits for Tamils too. Tamil's and telugus are far more Indian than any Indian, they too fought for freedom, didnt come free of cost. Still on the streets of TN we can see n number of people roaming with names nethaji, bhagat, nehru etc... Could you show single north Indian roaming with name kamaraj, V.O.Chidambaram, Thiruvalluvar, Kattabomman??? So let's stop fearing about tamils or telugus having their Identities too...

Quote:If you read your comments again, it will be pretty much clear whats wrong with that thought process. You fall back again "on our identity" blah blah. Why don't you try promoting "values" rather than "identities".

None on this world without Identities. What makes you to think these Identities don't carry values???? When you stress values, what values and whose values???? What is the problem with people seeking diverse identities in addition to Indian Identity??? Suspicion is the main enemy which kills the unity.... Not the Identity as such as. As a human being each one of us are individualistic and different(Identity) even then we all get together as a social being with oneness 4 mutual benefits, sharing, love and common good.....

According to me fearing too much about Linguistic Identity is unnecessary.... They need their space...

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#20
(12-Oct-2012, 10:27 AM)envirovivek Wrote: The general impression is south Indians occupy major share of IT job market both in India and other english speaking foreign countires... Its not about where the industries are placed... Being an IT, you would be better to say is it so...

Thats true, but the reason, IMO, is as follows
1. Started in Karnataka because of state laws
2. Spread in nearby states by obvious consequence.

Also Hyderabad got more IT hubs before Kerala or Tamil Nadu. That again doesn't seem to be in sync with argument about knowledge of English.

As always, data will help, cause I can be ofcourse wrong here.

(12-Oct-2012, 10:27 AM)envirovivek Wrote: It look ramble for u, but I had to write in detail because, I wanna convince a free thinker in our forum who accused Tamils as racist, chauvenists etc.... Sorry for writing ramble in reponse to your questions. Its not that I don't want to answer your question, I don't know what answer you want. As a humanist I feel I stand for right cause, giving voice for the affected community. U say a lot umpire, jumping, superstition, nelson number... I didn't even understand even one... If you think what you said is important please elaborate...

The answer to the question "Why do something" can't be "Whats wrong in it?" Jumping on Nelson's number score is a superstition in cricket followed by umpire like David Shepherd. If I ask him why do you involve in a superstition, the answer could very much be "Whats wrong?". Thats a fallacious argument. There should be a reason to do something, not to not do something.

(12-Oct-2012, 10:27 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Yes what I mean is cultural representation only..... But I don't know, why shouldn't we equate culture with language??? give me reply only when you are feeling like giving...

I have a friend who stayed in a village and we come from the same state. But his native tongue is not same as the state tongue, while my mother tongue is same as state tongue. But he is much more literate about the grass root culture and problems than me. Although this is anecdotal, it is based of common sense. A culture is MUCH MORE than a language.

(12-Oct-2012, 10:27 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Language certainly has a role to play, especially in Tamil Nadu because, its they who encountered the genocide because of Linguistic identities. At-least until they get justice for this genocide and Eezham struggle. What I contend is understanding comes only when one knows the culture and sensibilities of that particular language speaking people. Therefore always best bet is to trust a person from their linguistic group than non-group... If a non-group heads the state, during testing or troubling times he may surrender to the pressure from union government, why the heck I should suffer for these language speaking people. Knowledge about roots comes only when one lives in those roots, not just by observation... one got to experience...

The sentence "Therefore always best bet is to ...." is wrong. Language doesn't necessarily give knowledge about culture. It might, but not necessarily. And why look at indicators when the root is visible. Elect people who are assimilated into the culture, not language. This is like trying to find how a cake tastes by analyzing its recipe, rather than just tasting it.

Again point is simple. Requirement is cultural assimilation and that. Thats all. Language should not be a criteria because it might be an indicator but just that.

(12-Oct-2012, 10:27 AM)envirovivek Wrote: That's true, but what should a particular group of people's pains agonies are not understood by so called NATION under the guise of National Interest, that too even after the huge blood shed and genocide, on top of it the so called Nation also has blood stains in its hands....

As I have mentioned countless times before, its not "eye for eye logic" that will work. The solution for discrimnation is not: lets discriminate against the ones who discriminated. So because somebody tried to impose identity, the response shouldn't be "ok we'll impose ours now".

(12-Oct-2012, 10:27 AM)envirovivek Wrote: But Dravidian Movement also has free thinking as its fundamental component... What irrational thing does Dravidian movement or I as a supporter displayed, what made you to come to a conclusion we are not freethinkers. In what way we are non-humanistic???? I think Dravidian Identity is hurting for you, is it??? Dravidian Identity is just a Tag to research and rework lost dravidian cultures and adapt it to modern world.... Diverse Identity need not be considered as threat to national unity. When a nation allows rationally developed Identities to flourish there is scope for unity, if nation tries to destroy or tries to brush under the carpet, imposes identities then only artificial unity is evolved, not natural, which comes out celebrating diversity.

Wanting "language based representation" is not rational.
Wanting diversity at ANY COST, is not rational.
Enforcing REGIONAL IDENTITIY at ANY cost is not rational.

If you had argued "I want tamil literature to be preserved". Nothing irrational about it. If you argue "All govt officers in Tamil Nadu HAVE TO BE FAMILIAR WITH TAMIL LITERATURE" is absurd.

And finally arguing "I want to be like my ancestors who were good to the extent I will follow whatever did" is again wrong. What is more rational is "Hey, our ancestors had this value that is universal and good. Lets try to inculcate that, and also have a look at the practices that they followed to imbibe these values. If they make sense lets follow those practices".

(12-Oct-2012, 10:27 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Understanding anyone can do through reading writing and listening, but only living will carry the culture forward organically. Culture is organic, not physical, cant be moved structurally... Tamils culture could be preserved only by they living in such a way, others will be busy living in their own cultural way.... I cant bring in people for rent to live in Tamil lifestyle and to carry forward the culture. When I say Tamil culture, enjoying Tamil arts, literature, heritage etc... More than that not every body can conserve everything, everybody will be busy concentrating on their own cultures, so Tamils only can conserve their culture, likewise Telugu. In a decentralized way diverse people conserve diverse cultures. Weather other people understands importance of Tamil or not is the need, weather the people who live as a Tamil, does he understood and does he carries it correctly is very important, when one makes sure of this, puts an effort for this, then Identity comes. Tamil Identity, Linguistic Identity, Only through such understanding, this one of the oldest classical language is still surviving. No wonder 2500 yrs back written Tamil epic Silappadikaaram, written Jaina sage, Ilangovadigal dreamed and advocated for Tamil Nationalism asked for Unity between, Chera, Chozha and Pandia.

All these things can be preserved just the way art gets preserved. By having focus groups that care about it. No need for "nationalism", that is overcompensating and classic manifestation of homophobic tendencies.

(12-Oct-2012, 10:27 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Without sensitizing the people how we gonna preserve culture and heritage. People can carry two Identities provided both are coexisting and relationships are smooth. Telugu and Indian for example...
Heritage is organic, not just physical preservation. And certainly anybody can understand and appreciate any number of cultures but a person can live single life at a time.

But why force which culture they want to live into. Just by the very fact that they were born into a specific region doesn't entitle anybody to force X culture onto them. Its their choice.


(12-Oct-2012, 10:27 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Which is imposed??? the Identity Tamil is natural, at-least from Silappadikaaram point of view, this identity is 2500 yrs old. Just because a Telugu chooses makes love with is Telugu identity, it doesn't mean he going to loose his Indian identity. This is uncalled fear. This suits for Tamils too. Tamil's and telugus are far more Indian than any Indian, they too fought for freedom, didnt come free of cost. Still on the streets of TN we can see n number of people roaming with names nethaji, bhagat, nehru etc... Could you show single north Indian roaming with name kamaraj, V.O.Chidambaram, Thiruvalluvar, Kattabomman??? So let's stop fearing about tamils or telugus having their Identities too...

HAHAHA. Twisting the meaning. Nobody is afraid of any identities. What I am objecting is enforcing it. Again and again the problem is "We want only Tamil language based governance" and stuff like that. If a person wants to live in Tamil Nadu, but speak Japanese, but still work with other Tamil Nadu people, he should very much be eligible for govt post. Period.

(12-Oct-2012, 10:27 AM)envirovivek Wrote: None on this world without Identities. What makes you to think these Identities don't carry values???? When you stress values, what values and whose values???? What is the problem with people seeking diverse identities in addition to Indian Identity??? Suspicion is the main enemy which kills the unity.... Not the Identity as such as. As a human being each one of us are individualistic and different(Identity) even then we all get together as a social being with oneness 4 mutual benefits, sharing, love and common good.....

According to me fearing too much about Linguistic Identity is unnecessary.... They need their space...

And this is the part that you don't get. Knowing a language is just matter of where were you born. Just like religion. I object religious enforcement and also language based identity enforcement based on same logic. I have given examples before.
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#21
(12-Oct-2012, 08:45 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote:
(12-Oct-2012, 08:20 AM)envirovivek Wrote: India is lagging a lot in socio-linguistics, Linguistic economics and many other language fields, No research and policy evaluations with respect to languages. India thinks Language diversities are burden for the country, but fails to notice language diversity is source of livelihood opportunity. For example if one movie industry is there, say for example 10 lyric writers gets job, if 10 or 20 Movie Industries are there we will have 10 lyric writers for each industry. That's how jobs are created, not by killing diversity. Here in Sweden the harry-potter novels gets translated within 2 months after it gets released in English. Which has huge market. Again Translation and republishing is another sector of livelihood. If we try to speak these realities we get branded as Chauvinists.....

Quote:Citations please.

Right Now I don't have any citation, that diverse languages creates diverse job opportunities.

Quote:Because in one place you claim that "knowledge of English" was key to IT industry success and at the other place you say job creation happens because of exact opposite reason.

Yes English was used for creating job from western world, Conserving Indian tongues would create livelihood for people here by serving to regional markets.

Quote:And your stand sounds exactly like anybody who opposes introduction of new technology on the grounds of reduced labor opportunities.

So you don't support Indian government asking for Hindi official language status in UNO????

Quote:Assuming we have just one language based film industry doesn't in any way mean reduction in job opportunities, because its not going to result in "lesser number of movies". The market space remaining constant,

Take for example Number of lyricists in each language film Industry...
Hindi-207
Tamil-172
Telugu-142
Kannada-50
Malyalam-40
Bengali-60 (source: few months back I researched in Raaga.com may not be exact numbers but approximate.)

Approximately, except Tamil Nadu, today Hindi Films gets screenings in all other states. In TN percentage of release far less than other state.

See the number of lyricists in each Industry. If as you said only one movie Industry would have been there then also 207. At point it saturates for Hindi. Just because right now there are six more industries today. See the increase in number of people getting jobs. Tamil market is less influenced by other language movies, hence tops lyricist number than populationwise richer Telugu(More addicted to Hindi Movies). (Anyhow these are my interpretations, detailed research is need. I think UGC is sleeping)

Take for example Media, you know what is the wealthy business today in India, market potential is still unharnessed, it is in regional media.

Quote:See the following quote from participants of Promote Linguistic Equality Group:

By వివేక్ బాబు in Promote Linguistic Equality: Hindi is Not National Language of India (Files) · Edit Doc · நீக்க
Visual Media

"Priyank Bhargav" The Follwoing article talks about the growing popularity of regional TV channels. If you observe closely, Gujarati and Marathi households with TV are more in number. But, their advertisement market is very very less compared to Kannada, or Tamil or Telugu. With Gujarat and Maharashtra having embraced 'Hindi imposition', people of those states have switched en masse to Hindi channels. The side-effect of this is visible in poor advertisement market for Gujarati and Marathi entertainment channels. http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/indu...nd-economy
"వివేక్ బాబు" ‎Priyank Bhargav Excellent!!! Thank you for sharing Here... This article and stats itself is a proof for solid socio-economic impact of Hindi imperialism so far. This article comes out of recent TV Industry conference happened in Delhi. A dedicated academic field for studying socio-linguistics and linguistic economics would bring more truths out...

See even in this lack of Hindi imposition in Tamil Nadu makes it top. not because of Population. Telugu being population rich and region wise big, lags behind TN.... (Ok you will say I am assuming or making assumptions, but what does UGC doing in India, why research are not happening in this direction??? Governmenet leaves everything like this into the hands of normal citizens like us. When we start doing crude research amidst various constraints media and pro-Hindi people call names saying Chauvnists, some will ask citation, peer reviewed citation from normal protesters, I don't know what does UGC and Education Ministys doing?. Kapil Siball Busy Imposing Three language formula, Centralised medical entrance, to amass the seats from Medical colleges of TN and Maharashtra for example. Even small countries like singapore has more than one official language and publishes atleast one socio-linguistics paper. India for last 20 - 30 years hardly 4 or 5 papers, Isn't it absurd???)

So for every language there is saturation point. This is called functional diversity, Function of Hindi is different from Bhojpuri, Punjabi, Tamil and Telugu...

So what you claim is falls, one has to see languages as living organisms or organic system.

Quote:None of the industry other than literature is language dependent. And people interested in literature will still need translations etc.

Media is language dependent... Likewise many are there. A Indian citizen in Far end of Tamil Nadu or Far End of Myanmar, Far End of Kashmir, should get to know day today parliament proceedings in Their own mother tongues when they click Loksabha or rajya sabha website. This is real democracy, Untill then its imperialism.


Quote:There is no need to enforce the interest of language on common man who is more interested in it as a tool for communication.

Language is beyond communication, Language is source of knowledge, only through that you get love, compassion, sympathy, empathy everything. For all these each language good amount of literatures. Any community group without enough literature is group of social animals, with good literature civilized social beings or animals. The period when you see common men also speaks about literature its only then you will see the real power of literacy. Society is organic and dynamic we cant keep doing centralised planning, what common people need and literature people need

All the thoughts I shared here is learning I got through the participants of Promote Linguistic Equality Group. I like to thank the group members...
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#22
(12-Oct-2012, 11:59 AM)envirovivek Wrote: So you don't support Indian government asking for Hindi official language status in UNO????

Theoretically I stand for just one global language. So NO I don't support Hindi as official language in UNO.


(12-Oct-2012, 11:59 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Take for example Number of lyricists in each language film Industry...
Hindi-207
Tamil-172
Telugu-142
Kannada-50
Malyalam-40
Bengali-60 (source: few months back I researched in Raaga.com may not be exact numbers but approximate.)

I find it not convincing for establishing "causality". For e.g. I can argue that the number of lyricist is highly proportional to the penetration of that industry. And penetration doesn't depend ON LANGUAGE, but CONTENT. That is the reason Hollywood is famous in some cities more than the state language movies.

In any case. I made it aptly clear that there still can be regional film industries for cultural reasons. Needn't be for language reasons. For e.g. imagine a state X. It can have movies in common language Y catering to the masses of X. Doesn't kill the industry.

(12-Oct-2012, 11:59 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Take for example Media, you know what is the wealthy business today in India, market potential is still unharnessed, it is in regional media.

You argument is very very circular. Media is again for "content" not language. There will be a separate news channel for Mahrashtra, an advertisement for "Dhokla mix" and things like that irrespective of the language.

(12-Oct-2012, 11:59 AM)envirovivek Wrote: See the following quote from participants of Promote Linguistic Equality Group:

By వివేక్ బాబు in Promote Linguistic Equality: Hindi is Not National Language of India (Files) · Edit Doc · நீக்க
Visual Media

"Priyank Bhargav" The Follwoing article talks about the growing popularity of regional TV channels. If you observe closely, Gujarati and Marathi households with TV are more in number. But, their advertisement market is very very less compared to Kannada, or Tamil or Telugu. With Gujarat and Maharashtra having embraced 'Hindi imposition', people of those states have switched en masse to Hindi channels. The side-effect of this is visible in poor advertisement market for Gujarati and Marathi entertainment channels. http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/indu...nd-economy
"వివేక్ బాబు" ‎Priyank Bhargav Excellent!!! Thank you for sharing Here... This article and stats itself is a proof for solid socio-economic impact of Hindi imperialism so far. This article comes out of recent TV Industry conference happened in Delhi. A dedicated academic field for studying socio-linguistics and linguistic economics would bring more truths out...

Can't buy this logic. Where in the argument is there correlation for labor with language? Advertisement for "Gujarati channel" goes down, but it goes up for Hindi channel. So there is no deficit. If Gujarati channels go down, Hindi channels will rise. So nope, no direct correlation is visible.

(12-Oct-2012, 11:59 AM)envirovivek Wrote: See even in this lack of Hindi imposition in Tamil Nadu makes it top. not because of Population. Telugu being population rich and region wise big, lags behind TN.... (Ok you will say I am assuming or making assumptions, but what does UGC doing in India, why research are not happening in this direction??? Governmenet leaves everything like this into the hands of normal citizens like us. When we start doing crude research amidst various constraints media and pro-Hindi people call names saying Chauvnists, some will ask citation, peer reviewed citation from normal protesters, I don't know what does UGC and Education Ministys doing?. Kapil Siball Busy Imposing Three language formula, Centralised medical entrance, to amass the seats from Medical colleges of TN and Maharashtra for example. Even small countries like singapore has more than one official language and publishes atleast one socio-linguistics paper. India for last 20 - 30 years hardly 4 or 5 papers, Isn't it absurd???)

So for every language there is saturation point. This is called functional diversity, Function of Hindi is different from Bhojpuri, Punjabi, Tamil and Telugu...

So what you claim is falls, one has to see languages as living organisms or organic system.

I haven't made any claim to begin with. Its you who are claiming that diversity creates jobs. I am arguing that doesn't seem true. And I see heavy costs associated with having "language diversity". You have to establish causality first not assume it and prove it by the way.

And worse, you propose imposition to the extent that "govt should be language based". That has nothing and absolutely nothing to do with "language diversity".

(12-Oct-2012, 11:59 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Media is language dependent... Likewise many are there. A Indian citizen in Far end of Tamil Nadu or Far End of Myanmar, Far End of Kashmir, should get to know day today parliament proceedings in Their own mother tongues when they click Loksabha or rajya sabha website. This is real democracy, Untill then its imperialism.

Try to keep your posts to the point. Don't try appeal to emotions. The absurdity is that Media is about content not language. I would like to know what happened in my region IRRESPECTIVE of the language. So that claim is rubbish.


(12-Oct-2012, 11:59 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Language is beyond communication, Language is source of knowledge, only through that you get love, compassion, sympathy, empathy everything. For all these each language good amount of literatures. Any community group without enough literature is group of social animals, with good literature civilized social beings or animals. The period when you see common men also speaks about literature its only then you will see the real power of literacy. Society is organic and dynamic we cant keep doing centralised planning, what common people need and literature people need

All the thoughts I shared here is learning I got through the participants of Promote Linguistic Equality Group. I like to thank the group members...
[/quote]

WRONG. Language is not source of knowledge, its "communicator". Knowledge of Science/Math/Psychology doesn't change one bit depending on the language. The rest is bullshit. Common man cares about CONTENT not language for the umpteenth time. Every language in this world has all emotions in place. The fundamentalist nature pertaining to language is clearly oozing out in this comment.
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#23
A quick search for correlation of linguistic diversity with economic development gave the following two results
1. http://www.econ.kuleuven.be/ew/academic/...guages.pdf

2. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...6mz6CqyR9A

PDF 1 is actually about the reverse causality as to whether economic development decreases language diversity, which turns out to be true. This is not exactly what we are discussing, but it does establish that less diverse seem to be more economically developed.

PDF 2 states that it does seem (although not conclusively) that linguistic diversity impedes economic development.

Even if both the PDFs are considered to be not conclusive, they cast heavy doubt on claims about "language diversity" will result in economic development.

PDF 1 actually spells out what I was arguing. "Economic development is based on specialization and trade. Individuals who specialize and trade must develop common means of communication."
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#24

India is a hindu majority nation with a hindi speaking majority and the central government realizing these iestwin reality promotes Hindi over all other indian languages. At the end of the day, its nothing but a case of majoritarianism. As mundane as that.

And no I cannot understand the contents of the media about the happenings in my region IRRESPECTIVE of the language its delivered in, since its imperative that it should be in a language that I cognise and whose nuances I appreciate.

The Bangladeshis protested the indifference of the west pakistanis to the bengali language. The west pakistanis basking in their ideas of the east pakistani who spoke bengali, ate rice, who was short and who was dark couldn't be bothered more. And this indifference gave the opportunity for the Indian armed forces to win their finest victory which they take pride in to this day. Talk about language not being an emotive issue.

Just let the central government declare that all central government directives from now on shall be delivered exclusively in the english language in order that neutrality be maintained vis a vis all indian languages and then see the backlash from the Hindi speaking states.???

This post http://nirmukta.net/Thread-Puja-in-the-o...+privilege discusses in detail the hindu privilege in action in offices.

how many people see and realise the extent of the Hindi privilege in action ?? As a malayalee and as an Indian i would most likely have to learn hindi if i had to do business with a north indian who didnt know either english or malayalam. on the converse the hindi speaker could accuse me of being unpatriotic if i didnt know hindi simply because the central government doesn't see malayalam as being equal to hindi. If it did, either it would issue all its directives in all indian languages or only in english exlusively. Its like "learn hindi by default, opt out if you want to" . Thats what all the actions of he central government amount to vis a vis the language policy of india.

I may have to learn hindi for economic reasons, but why should i learn hindi to prove my "indianess" as defined by the central government of india.??

@envirovivek

Your posts have been called "rubbish" and your writing skills in the english language perhaps may not be upto scratch. But i can commiserate with the motivation behind your posts and hope that no amount of negativity dampens your free spirit even if the dampening comes from "freethinkers".

I really hope that the supreme court hands over the ayodhya land over to the VHP/RSS and that hindi is declared as the national language and Hinduism the official religion. Sooner the charade is over and one with, the better.






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