Dravidian Nationalism
#25
(12-Oct-2012, 11:24 PM)stupidseeker Wrote: India is a hindu majority nation with a hindi speaking majority and the central government realizing these iestwin reality promotes Hindi over all other indian languages. At the end of the day, its nothing but a case of majoritarianism. As mundane as that.

Agreed.

(12-Oct-2012, 11:24 PM)stupidseeker Wrote: And no I cannot understand the contents of the media about the happenings in my region IRRESPECTIVE of the language its delivered in, since its imperative that it should be in a language that I cognise and whose nuances I appreciate.

The point I was trying to make is that media is not dependent on language. If tomorrow a state adopts a new language, the media is not going to DIE, as being portrayed. Its just going to be in the new language. Thats all. The argument has nothing to do with any specific language.

(12-Oct-2012, 11:24 PM)stupidseeker Wrote: The Bangladeshis protested the indifference of the west pakistanis to the bengali language. The west pakistanis basking in their ideas of the east pakistani who spoke bengali, ate rice, who was short and who was dark couldn't be bothered more. And this indifference gave the opportunity for the Indian armed forces to win their finest victory which they take pride in to this day. Talk about language not being an emotive issue.

Language is emotive because it is made so. Not inherently. Thats a fact to be realized.

(12-Oct-2012, 11:24 PM)stupidseeker Wrote: Just let the central government declare that all central government directives from now on shall be delivered exclusively in the english language in order that neutrality be maintained vis a vis all indian languages and then see the backlash from the Hindi speaking states.???

Then those states will be WRONG!

(12-Oct-2012, 11:24 PM)stupidseeker Wrote: This post http://nirmukta.net/Thread-Puja-in-the-o...+privilege discusses in detail the hindu privilege in action in offices.

how many people see and realise the extent of the Hindi privilege in action ?? As a malayalee and as an Indian i would most likely have to learn hindi if i had to do business with a north indian who didnt know either english or malayalam. on the converse the hindi speaker could accuse me of being unpatriotic if i didnt know hindi simply because the central government doesn't see malayalam as being equal to hindi. If it did, either it would issue all its directives in all indian languages or only in english exlusively. Its like "learn hindi by default, opt out if you want to" . Thats what all the actions of he central government amount to vis a vis the language policy of india.

I may have to learn hindi for economic reasons, but why should i learn hindi to prove my "indianess" as defined by the central government of india.??

Unnecessary diversion of the post. I have absolutely agreed that Hindi imposition is wrong. But the way to tackle Hindi imposition is not to impose a specific tongue in return. The mistake would be same in that case.

(12-Oct-2012, 11:24 PM)stupidseeker Wrote: @envirovivek

Your posts have been called "rubbish" and your writing skills in the english language perhaps may not be upto scratch. But i can commiserate with the motivation behind your posts and hope that no amount of negativity dampens your free spirit even if the dampening comes from "freethinkers".

I really hope that the supreme court hands over the ayodhya land over to the VHP/RSS and that hindi is declared as the national language and Hinduism the official religion. Sooner the charade is over and one with, the better.

Unnecessary appeal to emotions. Do not make this "us vs them" kind of debate. We are arguing based on logic and rationality, and thats that. Also I have not commented that "post is rubbish". If I did that apologies. I have always commented (or wanted to) that the "logic" is rubbish.
[+] 1 user Likes Kanad Kanhere's post
Reply
#26
(12-Oct-2012, 07:17 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: [quote='envirovivek' pid='7453' dateline='1350004015']

I wish moderator could change the name of this thread to Dravidian Movement.


(11-Oct-2012, 07:02 AM)Captain Mandrake Wrote: I think the Dravidian movement has mightily screwed up South Indians with a lot of linguistic (Yes, they say that Tamil is the oldest language.)chauvinism and racial (Yes they do think that South Indians are racially different from North Indians) superiority nonsense.

I asked Moderators Change the name of thread from Dravidian Nationalism to Dravidian Movement.

I didnt suggest anyone to make the name of this thread as Dravidian Nationalism, But it was suggested by a freethinker Who thinks "South Indians are Chauvenists, Racial Superiority Nonsense"(Made these slanders without even giving citations, yet Moderators, Super Moderators, Administrators never bothered give Warning to him)

I have two requests to Moderator,

1. Please change the name of the thread to Dravidian Movement

2. And please ask Mr. Mandrake to ask unconditional apology for making such baseless slander against South Indians... If not ask him to give citations... (I was waiting so long for his reply, but he didnt turn up, but busy liking your posts)

3. Please ask Free thinkers to give gives proper reply to each and every post, some make slanders and skips the proper reply given for the slander and jumps on to another topic. (In a proper constructive debate, agreements and disagreements should keep coming sequentially, Just because one don't like opposite persons views, he cant keep on pointing only the mistake he done, but one got to acknowledge the true facts one presented and should say sorry if made mistake.) Debates are not criminal investigations, keeping the opposite person always in defensive....
Reply
#27
(13-Oct-2012, 06:39 AM)envirovivek Wrote: I have two requests to Moderator,

1. Please change the name of the thread to Dravidian Movement

2. And please ask Mr. Mandrake to ask unconditional apology for making such baseless slander against South Indians... If not ask him to give citations... (I was waiting so long for his reply, but he didnt turn up, but busy liking your posts)

3. Please ask Free thinkers to give gives proper reply to each and every post, some make slanders and skips the proper reply given for the slander and jumps on to another topic. (In a proper constructive debate, agreements and disagreements should keep coming sequentially, Just because one don't like opposite persons views, he cant keep on pointing only the mistake he done, but one got to acknowledge the true facts one presented and should say sorry if made mistake.) Debates are not criminal investigations, keeping the opposite person always in defensive....

Envirovivek, I am not moderator of this group and hence am unable to implement the change you have requested in 1.

I couldn't find 2 in this thread. So not sure what was the context of the post. But from the quoted text I don't see that person attacking South Indians. It seems to be attacking Dravidian Movement, which as per the author's opinion subscribes to South Indian superiority concepts, which (again as per the author) are nonsense. So it doesn't seem to be attack on a group or person but on an idea, which I guess should be fine.

On 3, its necessary that we attack only ideas and not people. And ofcourse one of the humblest feature of a freethinker is the ability to accept that s/he is wrong when proven so. If you have anything specific comment in mind, you can always report the post. Or you can raise your concern here
Reply
#28
envirovivek wrote I support only Tamil Nationalists parties in TN, which is the need of the hour for TN.... in the thread about caste names. That is why I requested the moderator to change the name of the thread to Dravidian Nationalism.

If the moderator feels like it he can change the name of this thread to Dravidian Movement. Doesn't bother me one bit.
Reply
#29
(13-Oct-2012, 08:07 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: Envirovivek, I am not moderator of this group and hence am unable to implement the change you have requested in 1.

Hope Moderator of this thread would Change it as soon as possible...

Quote:I couldn't find 2 in this thread. So not sure what was the context of the post. But from the quoted text I don't see that person attacking South Indians. It seems to be attacking Dravidian Movement, which as per the author's opinion subscribes to South Indian superiority concepts, which (again as per the author) are nonsense. So it doesn't seem to be attack on a group or person but on an idea, which I guess should be fine.

But What about the citations for his claims????? Does Nirmukta allow people pass slander on historic movements without citations??? If the Dravidian movement was really so, why Respected Free thinkers Like Narendra Nayak gonna associate with Dravidar Kazhagam started by Periyar???

He must give citations for his slander... Free thinkers must be beyond North south divide...

Quote:On 3, its necessary that we attack only ideas and not people. And ofcourse one of the humblest feature of a freethinker is the ability to accept that s/he is wrong when proven so. If you have anything specific comment in mind, you can always report the post. Or you can raise your concern here

I disproved his claims by replying and explaining him in detail, but it seems he is in no mood to reply to that post by saying weather he agrees or not???? Weather he takes back his opinion or not???? I will never be quite if I was disproved, I will never find shame to accpet my mistakes. I expect the same from other free thinkers too... I kindly request him to reply weather his opinion chnaged or not??
Reply
#30
(13-Oct-2012, 08:21 AM)Captain Mandrake Wrote: envirovivek wrote I support only Tamil Nationalists parties in TN, which is the need of the hour for TN.... in the thread about caste names. That is why I requested the moderator to change the name of the thread to Dravidian Nationalism.

If the moderator feels like it he can change the name of this thread to Dravidian Movement. Doesn't bother me one bit.



I like to make it clear for you sir, Tamil Nationalism is differnt from Dravidian Movement...

Being a Telugu I support Tamil Nationalism That's it...

Thank you,
Vivek Babu
Reply
#31
Envirovivek, after the slight diversion. Its time that you get back to the main topic of this thread.
Reply
#32
Stupidseeker,

You may have misunderstood my posts. My only opposition was to narrow nationalistic views expressed on this forum by Vivek. Just to be clear I am not advocating imposition on Hindi as the national language.

Some more of my views....IMO, tempering down nationalism of religious or linguistic or racial kind makes for a more inclusive livable society. Nationalism can only be defined along such parochial lines for perfectly homogenous populations living in an isolated island. In reality, most if not all societies have all kinds of interest groups living amongst each other, often with different sets of grievances against each other. People just have to learn to address these grievances by negotiating with each other in good faith and arrive at workable solutions to avoid disasters like what happened in East Pakistan and Balkans.

In the case of imposition of Hindi as the national language there seems to be a decent compromise here. Non-Hindi speaking minorities got English as the official language and the Hindi speaking majority got Hindi as the official language. Both sides got something but not everything they wanted.

India as a nation seems to have done a decent job of arriving at many such workable compromises. The video at the end of this post by arvindiyer does a good job of explaining this.
Reply
#33
(11-Oct-2012, 09:54 PM)stupidseeker Wrote: http://thegabbar.com/tag/padosan/

Nice link. It seems more like in-group out-group mudslinging. Nothing serious in my opinion.
Reply
#34
(12-Oct-2012, 11:29 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: Thats true, but the reason, IMO, is as follows
1. Started in Karnataka because of state laws
2. Spread in nearby states by obvious consequence.

Also Hyderabad got more IT hubs before Kerala or Tamil Nadu. That again doesn't seem to be in sync with argument about knowledge of English.

As always, data will help, cause I can be ofcourse wrong here.

IMO is South India embraced English more than North... Hindi is believed as national language till date... That's the cause. Again I say its not about where and when IT hubs started. It may have got started anywhere based on state govt policies as you say, but The very fact south Indians dominate IT, is itself proves, retaining of English by Anti-Hindi imposition agitation.

I don't see what is the need for you to hesitate about accepting the importance of Anti-Hindi Imposition Agitation, in retaining English as well as the agitation itself??

Moreover in one of the posts above I said, The people who got shot dead and self immolated in Anti-Hindi Imposition agitation, needs to be remembered by announcing it as Mother Language day of India. There is no response for that from you.

Quote:There should be a reason to do something, not to not do something.
But enforcing hard boundaries based on language (claims like Tamil Nadu should be governed by Tamils etc.) .

I just expressed my interest of seeing A Tamil CM, being a telugu I said that. Its just my wish, I am not imposing my wish on anyone. If that's the Telangana people wishing to get their own to rule themselves is also gets equated to this. Why people are not opposing this as parochial???

Quote:I have a friend who stayed in a village and we come from the same state. But his native tongue is not same as the state tongue, while my mother tongue is same as state tongue. But he is much more literate about the grass root culture and problems than me.

I wish to Know what is your language and what is your friends language??? Only based on that we can say how distant is his and your culture.

Quote:Although this is anecdotal, it is based of common sense. A culture is MUCH MORE than a language

I feel, people in this Free-thinkers community use the word Anecdotal, freely(Ripped off from ground truths) for whichever idea is not acceptable for their own interests. Say for example you go to a village, where alongwith your village friend you encounter a endemic snake, but for your eyes it looks non-venomous snake, based on his grassroot cultural experience he says its highly venemous, will you say his knowledge is anecdotal, just because he doesn't show you a citation?? Don't you give value for people ground level experience, exposure etc??? Will you believe only things which are already researched and are on the paper??? I think its in a way rude and arrogant to ask scientific evidence from people who fight for their rights, that's the duty of government to bring in proper research study. You failed to reply my comment about UGC not investing in Langiage policy and Socio-linguistcs.

Anyhow when i come to your claim A culture is much more than a language. This sounds like Hindu valuse and cultures are more important than language. Saying this only Tamil alnguage is not being allowed into chidambaram temple. See the below quote from UNESCO article.

The extinction of each language results in the irrecoverable loss of unique cultural, historical and ecological knowledge. Each language is a unique expression of the human experience of the world. Thus, the knowledge of any single language may be the key to answering fundamental questions of the future. Every time a language dies, we have less evidence for understanding patterns in the structure and function of human lan-guage, human prehistory and the maintenance of the world’s diverse ecosystems. Above all, speakers of these languages may experience the loss of their language as a loss of their original ethnic and cultural identity (Bernard, 1992; Hale, 1998).Source

Quote:The sentence "Therefore always best bet is to ...." is wrong. Language doesn't necessarily give knowledge about culture. It might, but not necessarily. And why look at indicators when the root is visible. Elect people who are assimilated into the culture, not language. This is like trying to find how a cake tastes by analyzing its recipe, rather than just tasting it.

Sorry, your basic logic is wrong. Language carries cultures to next generation... I hope you would have got enlightened by the UNESCO quote above.(You didn't believ when I said from my words, you need citations for everything. These are common sense for Botanists/Ecologist/Ethnobiologists like me.)

Quote:Again point is simple. Requirement is cultural assimilation and that. Thats all. Language should not be a criteria because it might be an indicator but just that.

Assimilation won't happen untill a Telugu remains as a telugu. he carries his Identity. When a telugu chooses to think particular issues are non-issues for him, since he is not tamil, then Tamil people will make decisions and they choose right candidate. These are just democratic processes. None is having gun in hand and none is forcing anyone to stop contesting from elections.

Again I got to give Telengana or Chattisgarh or Jharkand... Cultural or Linguistic boundaries are already ensured in constitution to an extent, Assertion of linguistic identity is also given full green signal in constitution, these are fundamental rights, associating to particular language.

(12-Oct-2012, 10:27 AM)envirovivek Wrote: That's true, but what should a particular group of people's pains agonies are not understood by so called NATION under the guise of National Interest, that too even after the huge blood shed and genocide, on top of it the so called Nation also has blood stains in its hands....

Quote:As I have mentioned countless times before, its not "eye for eye logic" that will work. The solution for discrimnation is not: lets discriminate against the ones who discriminated. So because somebody tried to impose identity, the response shouldn't be "ok we'll impose ours now".

That's funny arguement, A group of people belonging to particular language getting tuned up to the everyday realities and grouping themselves under particular linguistic identity is called Imposition??? Imposition on whom, they are asserting their identity. Identities are not mutually exclusive. I think you are using the word "imposition" very loosely... Its Hindi imperialism is called imposition, not Telugus grouping together based on their mother tongue. People gather on their own interest, none imposes.

Quote:Wanting "language based representation" is not rational.

Then why do we had linguistic reorganisation of states??? Which is not brought in by Periyar... Already Language based representation is assured in the constitution..

Quote:Wanting diversity at ANY COST, is not rational.

Again another quote from UNESCO report. Its not that I want diversity, I want to respect emotions, needs and rights of diverse linguistic group of people. (I said the same thing which is given in the below quote, as heritage preservation works through language too... I sounded a narrow minded:()

Language diversity is essential to the human heritage. Each and every language embodies the unique cultural wisdom of a people. The loss of any language is thus a loss for all humanity.Source

Quote:Enforcing REGIONAL IDENTITIY at ANY cost is not rational.

Regional Identity is not banned by our constitution... So Free thinkers group don't believe in Indian constitution?? See Gujarat High court conformed the regional identity, Hindi is alien!!!

Quote:If you had argued "I want tamil literature to be preserved". Nothing irrational about it. If you argue "All govt officers in Tamil Nadu HAVE TO BE FAMILIAR WITH TAMIL LITERATURE" is absurd.

Its absurd on your part to think I would think so, on the contrary Hindi bench in every central government offices sits and checks weather all Non-Hindi employees are signing the documents in Hindi or not. If a person raises voice to oppose this how one could call him chauvenists??? or he is asserting regional identity??

You are using the word Rational loosely after anecdote and imposed, please have a check over these words. Who takes final call on which is rational and which is not??? I really don't understand, how it could be free thinking, when one intends to say One state one language??? Do you really feel one state one language comes under free thinking??? Isn't it dogma??? Isn't it against Equality, which is the basic goals of Nirmukta???

Quote:And finally arguing "I want to be like my ancestors who were good to the extent I will follow whatever did" is again wrong. What is more rational is "Hey, our ancestors had this value that is universal and good. Lets try to inculcate that, and also have a look at the practices that they followed to imbibe these values. If they make sense lets follow those practices".

I am sorry, these are pedagogic which I got through education and rational thinking. I am grown up, graduate and I know, what rivival tamil sangam social system means. When I mean that its self understood for people with my age, that i would adapt those values to current world order, not that i will copy exactly.

(12-Oct-2012, 10:27 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Understanding anyone can do through reading writing and listening, but only living will carry the culture forward organically. Culture is organic, not physical, cant be moved structurally... Tamils culture could be preserved only by they living in such a way, others will be busy living in their own cultural way.... I cant bring in people for rent to live in Tamil lifestyle and to carry forward the culture. When I say Tamil culture, enjoying Tamil arts, literature, heritage etc... More than that not every body can conserve everything, everybody will be busy concentrating on their own cultures, so Tamils only can conserve their culture, likewise Telugu. In a decentralized way diverse people conserve diverse cultures. Weather other people understands importance of Tamil or not is the need, weather the people who live as a Tamil, does he understood and does he carries it correctly is very important, when one makes sure of this, puts an effort for this, then Identity comes. Tamil Identity, Linguistic Identity, Only through such understanding, this one of the oldest classical language is still surviving. No wonder 2500 yrs back written Tamil epic Silappadikaaram, written Jaina sage, Ilangovadigal dreamed and advocated for Tamil Nationalism asked for Unity between, Chera, Chozha and Pandia.

Quote:All these things can be preserved just the way art gets preserved. By having focus groups that care about it. No need for "nationalism", that is overcompensating and classic manifestation of homophobic tendencies.

Already I've presented the UNESCO quote, and our Indian constituition also allows this, expression of Identities and nationalism.

The problem is, the people who think themselves as superior nationalists, treat opposite person who voices the need for conserving their identity and values as separatist or narrow minded. Even before the opposite person thinks he want a separate country, these nationalists will brand him as separatist and create stereotypes and stigma around those political topics. This should stop. See the demand as just demand, don't keep on suspecting the opposite person. Respect the demand and react positively and the matter ends there. If people keep on suspecting opposite person, its not good for unity of the country... Everyone are equally nationalistic.

(12-Oct-2012, 10:27 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Without sensitizing the people how we gonna preserve culture and heritage. People can carry two Identities provided both are coexisting and relationships are smooth. Telugu and Indian for example...
Heritage is organic, not just physical preservation. And certainly anybody can understand and appreciate any number of cultures but a person can live single life at a time.

Quote:But why force which culture they want to live into. Just by the very fact that they were born into a specific region doesn't entitle anybody to force X culture onto them. Its their choice.

I again you imply, I as a telugu am imposing telugu identity on my fellow Telugu, by speaking to him about my Language and need for we telugus grouping together for asserting our rights is wrong. The actual Imposition and Force is With Rajbasha website, What is your solution for curbing this Hindi hegemony menace???


Quote:HAHAHA. Twisting the meaning. Nobody is afraid of any identities. What I am objecting is enforcing it. Again and again the problem is "We want only Tamil language based governance" and stuff like that. If a person wants to live in Tamil Nadu, but speak Japanese, but still work with other Tamil Nadu people, he should very much be eligible for govt post. Period.

Then why Central government posts are asking for Hindi Compulsory???? So you say Tamil should not be compulsory Tamil Nadu, for jobs, But Hindi will be compulsory all over India right??? Why this japan language person is not being allowed into Central governemtn jobs. These statements of yours prove that all Hindi speaking people are superior people and we rest of us are second grade citizens right???


Quote:And this is the part that you don't get. Knowing a language is just matter of where were you born. Just like religion. I object religious enforcement and also language based identity enforcement based on same logic. I have given examples before.

For this also UNESCO quote and Indian constituition answers your question... None forced me to take my Telugu Identity it has come naturally... Please don't compare religion with language, the religion is myth and language is reality, living and organic. Your comparison language with religion is irrational, such comparisons are possible only for people who fear about Linguistic identities...

India is Unique experiment, and federal governement, should learn to evolve their language policy, atleast learning from other countries, who have [/quote]even more than 10 official languages.
Reply
#35
[/quote][/b]
(12-Oct-2012, 01:19 PM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote:
(12-Oct-2012, 11:59 AM)envirovivek Wrote: So you don't support Indian government asking for Hindi official language status in UNO????

Theoretically I stand for just one global language. So NO I don't support Hindi as official language in UNO.

Based on which Theory???? Citation??

If you don't accept Hindi for UNO you wont accept Non-Hindi Languages as official language of Union of India???

As per the developmentalism Dogma One state one language, does this satisfies free thinking and rationalism???

Quote:I find it not convincing for establishing "causality". For e.g. I can argue that the number of lyricist is highly proportional to the penetration of that industry. And penetration doesn't depend ON LANGUAGE, but CONTENT. That is the reason Hollywood is famous in some cities more than the state language movies.

If you think content wise Hollywood is best, then I say your world view about movies are wrong. Worlds very good movie industries in contemporary world are Iranian, Korean and some other european movies. If you go Masala movies, commercial movies certainly Hollywood.

Highest correlate for English movie peneatration is their Colonial History, they left English in many continenets... Which is market base. Content is wrong arguement.

Quote:In any case. I made it aptly clear that there still can be regional film industries for cultural reasons. Needn't be for language reasons. For e.g. imagine a state X. It can have movies in common language Y catering to the masses of X. Doesn't kill the industry.

First of all in the last reply I disproved your claim language and culture are different.

And we very good examples in our country, BHojpuri, Marathi, Kannada are and brutally affected by Hindi movies. Invariably the states which asserts linguistic identities are able sustain their Movie Industry... Bengal, Kerala, AP, TN, Karnataka.

Shame on Bollywood, recently It's movies are banned in Nepal, still you say it won't affect. In Bangladesh too they voicing against Hindi influence. Your arguements are not matching the world realities.

Quote:You argument is very very circular. Media is again for "content" not language. There will be a separate news channel for Mahrashtra, an advertisement for "Dhokla mix" and things like that irrespective of the language.

If you say media is for Content, then why English News channels are not making huge revenues in states?? Why they lag behind Native languages??? If as you say media is not for language Why Hindi channels are lagging behind in Southern India??? The reason is Hindi a alien language for us.
Why Malyalam channels are not popular in AP? I dono what you are speaking, what do you mean by this content???

(12-Oct-2012, 11:59 AM)envirovivek Wrote: See the following quote from participants of Promote Linguistic Equality Group:

By వివేక్ బాబు in Promote Linguistic Equality: Hindi is Not National Language of India (Files) · Edit Doc · நீக்க
Visual Media

Quote:Can't buy this logic. Where in the argument is there correlation for labor with language? Advertisement for "Gujarati channel" goes down, but it goes up for Hindi channel. So there is no deficit. If Gujarati channels go down, Hindi channels will rise. So nope, no direct correlation is visible.

If Hindi channel goes up means the jobs are going for the Hindi Ad-makers, than the Gujarati Ad-makers... If whole India watches only Hindi language, then for example TATA will make their Ads only in Hindi. This will generate ad revenue for Single Ad-film agency, Since fiffernet states prefer different they are making ads in different languages, saý atleast 5 more Ad-Film companies from different languages are getting livelihood. Really your views on Economics and Livelihoods are very rudimentary. Repeated usage of word rational alone is not enough holisitc view is needed to understand socio-economics.

[quote='envirovivek' pid='7459' dateline='1350023378']
what does UGC doing in India, why research are not happening in this direction??? Governmenet leaves everything like this into the hands of normal citizens like us. When we start doing crude research amidst various constraints media and pro-Hindi people call names saying Chauvnists, some will ask citation, peer reviewed citation from normal protesters, I don't know what does UGC and Education Ministys doing?. Kapil Siball Busy Imposing Three language formula, Centralised medical entrance, to amass the seats from Medical colleges of TN and Maharashtra for example. Even small countries like singapore has more than one official language and publishes atleast one socio-linguistics paper. India for last 20 - 30 years hardly 4 or 5 papers, Isn't it absurd???)

What is your view about UGC's continuous neglect???

Quote:I haven't made any claim to begin with. Its you who are claiming that diversity creates jobs. I am arguing that doesn't seem true. And I see heavy costs associated with having "language diversity". You have to establish causality first not assume it and prove it by the way.

Those are costs in your point of view in my point of view those are slaries for people who works for serving the parting language speaking people.

Quote:And worse, you propose imposition to the extent that "govt should be language based". That has nothing and absolutely nothing to do with "language diversity".

Are you really thinking freely??? Are you not sticking yourself to Developmentalist Dogma, One state, one Language?? You are suggesting Austerity on the basic rights of people, In democracy its duty of governement to speak the language of people. One must Go and have look at the websites and offices of European union, American Government offices, canada, autralia etc... All over the world many countries are serving in Tamil, Telugu, Hindi, Malayalam even for the immigrants and temporary residents, but you are arguing Indian governemnt shoould not serve its citizens other than hindi and english??? I would say its 100% irrational and closed thinking...

Quote:Try to keep your posts to the point. Don't try appeal to emotions. The absurdity is that Media is about content not language. I would like to know what happened in my region IRRESPECTIVE of the language. So that claim is rubbish.

Irrespective of language means, will Hindi channel dare to open its Tv braodcasting for Tamils, Malyalis, Kannadigas??? Will it sustain the market???? I already in above comment disproved this logic media is content not for language.


(12-Oct-2012, 11:59 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Language is beyond communication, Language is source of knowledge, only through that you get love, compassion, sympathy, empathy everything. For all these each language good amount of literatures. Any community group without enough literature is group of social animals, with good literature civilized social beings or animals. The period when you see common men also speaks about literature its only then you will see the real power of literacy. Society is organic and dynamic we cant keep doing centralised planning, what common people need and literature people need

All the thoughts I shared here is learning I got through the participants of Promote Linguistic Equality Group. I like to thank the group members...

Quote:WRONG. Language is not source of knowledge, its "communicator". Knowledge of Science/Math/Psychology doesn't change one bit depending on the language.

Language is not source of knowledge carrier of knowledge from one generation to another. Se the followinf Excerpt from UNESCO report.

Linguistic Diversity and Ecodiversity
Among the 900 ecoregions of the world that WWF has mapped out, 238 (referred to as Global 200 Ecoregions) are found to be of the utmost importance for the mainte-nance of the world’s ecological viability. Within these Global 200 Ecoregions, we find a vast number of ethnolinguistic groups. These are peoples who have accumulated rich ecological knowledge in their long history of living in their environment. Conservation biology needs to be paralleled by conservation linguistics. Re-searchers are exploring not just the parallels, but the links between the world’s biodiversity and linguistic/cultural diversity, as well as the causes and consequences of diversity loss at all levels. This connection is significant in itself, because it suggests that the diversity of life is made up of diversity in nature, culture and language. This has been called ‘biocultural diversity’ by Luisa Maffi; and Michael Krauss has introduced the term ‘logosphere’ to described the web linking the world's languages (analogous to ‘bio-sphere’, the web linking the world’s ecosystems; Maffi, Krauss and Yamamoto, 2001, p. 74).


Quote:The rest is bullshit. Common man cares about CONTENT not language for the umpteenth time. Every language in this world has all emotions in place. The fundamentalist nature pertaining to language is clearly oozing out in this comment.

Really? common man cares about content alone not language? Its nonsense you dismiss the importance of language to this level. A common can apreciate a content only when it reaches him in his known language. In other words, Content could reach him only through his language, for that governement should serve them in their language.

The comment you expressed shows how shallow knowledge one could have about the importance and significance of languages.
Reply
#36
[/quote]
(12-Oct-2012, 01:38 PM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: A quick search for correlation of linguistic diversity with economic development gave the following two results

PDF 1 is actually about the reverse causality as to whether economic development decreases language diversity, which turns out to be true. This is not exactly what we are discussing, but it does establish that less diverse seem to be more economically developed.

If PDF 1 is true, it just satifies the question about Linguistic diversity relation to Economic development. Ok I agree you are disproving my claim diversity will increase economic development. But for everything there optimum and sturation would be there. We don't know those limits. My main claim was if Hindi becomes major language of the country, always Hindi speaking people will get naturally favoured in this country, because the ease with which they compete other non-hindi speakers in various spheres of life. If diverse languages are empowered in governement functioning livelihood and benefits would also spread evenly...

If this research would have really been accepted by wide section of people, why still EU have all european languages as its official Language???? These are just economists words/numbers, they can't satisfy the needs of the societies which seeks their governement to function in their own language.

Quote:PDF 2 states that it does seem (although not conclusively) that linguistic diversity impedes economic development.

Even if both the PDFs are considered to be not conclusive, they cast heavy doubt on claims about "language diversity" will result in economic development.

This doesnt open...



Quote:PDF 1 actually spells out what I was arguing. "Economic development is based on specialization and trade. Individuals who specialize and trade must develop common means of communication."

Language is not just for Trade... Beyond that there are businesses which cater to the cultural needs of various linguistic groups, say, media, entertainment, literature, education etc... My main arguement that diversity increases livelihood is related to these business fields which directly related to Language. Therefore the studies which you gave are not exact hypothesis which i was arguing. I didnt speak you about Economic development related to Diversity, I argued Livelihood evenly spreads and creates jobs for the people of each linguistic group...
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Cricket and nationalism in India (and Pakistan) Captain Mandrake 0 4,453 29-Sep-2012, 11:53 AM
Last Post: Captain Mandrake



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)