Dravidian Nationalism
#37
[quote='stupidseeker' pid='7467' dateline='1350064453']

[quote]And no I cannot understand the contents of the media about the happenings in my region IRRESPECTIVE of the language its delivered in, since its imperative that it should be in a language that I cognise and whose nuances I appreciate.[/quote]

I donät how people fail to understand this basic issue and argue in opposite way. Only the sufferers could understand these...

[quote]Just let the central government declare that all central government directives from now on shall be delivered exclusively in the english language in order that neutrality be maintained vis a vis all indian languages and then see the backlash from the Hindi speaking states.???[/quote]

Yes its, Still a political agenda in Hindi speaking states...

[quote]This post http://nirmukta.net/Thread-Puja-in-the-o...+privilege discusses in detail the hindu privilege in action in offices.

how many people see and realise the extent of the Hindi privilege in action ??[/quote]

I too wish to see similar discussion on Hindi Privilege, will That happen in this forum??? Not at all I guess...

[quote]As a malayalee and as an Indian i would most likely have to learn hindi if i had to do business with a north indian who didnt know either english or malayalam. on the converse the hindi speaker could accuse me of being unpatriotic if i didnt know hindi simply because the central government doesn't see malayalam as being equal to hindi. If it did, either it would issue all its directives in all indian languages or only in english exlusively. Its like "learn hindi by default, opt out if you want to" . Thats what all the actions of he central government amount to vis a vis the language policy of india.

I may have to learn hindi for economic reasons, but why should i learn hindi to prove my "indianess" as defined by the central government of india.??[/quote]

I have traveled to North India so far only twice, each time atleast more than thrice I was made feel ashamed for not knowing Hindi. Once in Raipur( in 2008), during a conference, A professor from Rajathan, was literally brainwashing me Hindi is national language, you should learn it.

Only after 25 yrs of my age, I came to know Hindi is not national language, Its just official, i.e, clerical language for office purpose nothing more than that... But the tortures experienced by Non-hindi people with this wrong information spread is infinite.

Once (In 2009) the SBI ATM card of my mom got lost. So i had to launch a complaint to SBI customer care immediately to avoid misuse of it. So I contacted SBI customer care. Which is located in Hyderabad. I spoke to them in english and explained the issue. The official wanted my mom to conform the information I said, she tried to speak in Telugu, but the customer care person refused to speak in Telugu. They wanted her to speak in English or Hindi... This is such brutal imposition by the SBI bank... Finally I fought and got transferred the call to higher official and she was allowed to speak in Telugu.

Like these n number day to day practical problems people are encountering in the ground, even the educated people are not standing up for making the governance dearer and easier for each and every linguistic group, then what is the use in getting educated. I don't know, only these kind of concerns makes me to fight...

[quote]@envirovivek

Your posts have been called "rubbish" and your writing skills in the english language perhaps may not be upto scratch.[/quote]

Yes my English writing skills are really a disadvantage for putting my views clearly. Elite english writers may make use of this and call my writings rubbish and bullshit, barely readble screed and brand me fundamentalist whatever they wish, finally they fail to notice that, I really try to reachout to them. I agree on many points they say. I must say sorry to everyone for my barely readable screed, which demand huge effort for everyone to read... Sorry for that

[quote]But i can commiserate with the motivation behind your posts and hope that no amount of negativity dampens your free spirit even if the dampening comes from "freethinkers".[/quote]

I am very optimistic person, won't give up soon on the basic human rights i believe in. Untill Linguistic rights issue caught me up, I was active in Environmental issues, where I am trained to handle such obstacles.

I have Great respect for Nirmukta community. We have diverse problems in our country, of which Hindu privilege, superstition and many other stuffs for which Nirmukta fights is really commendable. My view is In a society not everyone is committed and motivated to raise their voice for social issues. Only few turn up with social conciousness. Even such very few percentage who turn up with rationalism, should not divide apart because of minor mis-understandings. Even the people who does harm to the country are united, why not people doing good things for various causes can't stand together???

I will try my best to convince Nirmukta forum as much as possible, untill I get blocked.

[quote]I really hope that the supreme court hands over the ayodhya land over to the VHP/RSS and that hindi is declared as the national language and Hinduism the official religion. Sooner the charade is over and one with, the better.[/quote]

Exactly this One state one language sounds very similar to Hindu country and sanskrit national language kind of agenda.

With the advancement of IT and communication technologies, maintaining 22 official languages is not that horrible task, that is how EU functions...

If people raise voice against it with anger and frustration even before they realise Hindi hegemonic groups are ready to brand non-hindi communities as Silly, Chauvenists, Separatists etc... Actually if people think deeper, it needs just an amendment of getting all 8th schedule language as official of union or removing Hindi... If it is done issues are solved then there is is no feed and fear for separatism. Politicians may prefer to retain this problem for their benefits, but the proactive social organisations should not support such behaviours... The longer the fundamental rights are denied the more the hostility grows...

Its not the separatists kill the unity of the country its the blind nationalists who kill the unity....

Thank you very much for timely intervention into the thread.

With Regards,
Vivek Babu
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#38
(12-Oct-2012, 11:46 PM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote:
(12-Oct-2012, 11:24 PM)stupidseeker Wrote: The Bangladeshis protested the indifference of the west pakistanis to the bengali language. The west pakistanis basking in their ideas of the east pakistani who spoke bengali, ate rice, who was short and who was dark couldn't be bothered more. And this indifference gave the opportunity for the Indian armed forces to win their finest victory which they take pride in to this day. Talk about language not being an emotive issue.

Language is emotive because it is made so. Not inherently. Thats a fact to be realized.

Invariably language is emotive issue all over the world. No single person or political ideology made it so.... Irrespective of time the language been emotive. Take for example, why budhdha didn't choose sanskrit??? Buddha choose peoples language to reachout to people. In similar way governments should also reach out to people with respective peoples language.

(12-Oct-2012, 11:24 PM)stupidseeker Wrote: This post http://nirmukta.net/Thread-Puja-in-the-o...+privilege discusses in detail the hindu privilege in action in offices.

how many people see and realise the extent of the Hindi privilege in action ?? As a malayalee and as an Indian i would most likely have to learn hindi if i had to do business with a north indian who didnt know either english or malayalam. on the converse the hindi speaker could accuse me of being unpatriotic if i didnt know hindi simply because the central government doesn't see malayalam as being equal to hindi. If it did, either it would issue all its directives in all indian languages or only in english exlusively. Its like "learn hindi by default, opt out if you want to" . Thats what all the actions of he central government amount to vis a vis the language policy of india.

I may have to learn hindi for economic reasons, but why should i learn hindi to prove my "indianess" as defined by the central government of india.??

Quote:Unnecessary diversion of the post. I have absolutely agreed that Hindi imposition is wrong. But the way to tackle Hindi imposition is not to impose a specific tongue in return. The mistake would be same in that case.

I don't see any diversion in this arguemént... What's wrong in discussing about absurdness of Hindi impostion... How people get affected because of this in day to day practical life???

Imposing specific tongue in return on whom????

Are we asking imposition of Telugu on Hindi speaking people??? if its so you can call Imposition... What we are asking is Give the right of using my governement services in my mother tongue. How can I impose my mother tongue on myself, which I acquired effortlessly from my childhood???? Again Brother, you are using word "Impose" very loosely...

Ok brother you suggest a right way to tackle this issue? the way in which we could stop only single community getting undue benefit from having official language status.

All I heard so far just directions, this is right, this is wrong, this is narrow mindedness, that is fundamentalism. I wish to hear a solution which brings equality between languages.
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#39
[quote='Captain Mandrake' pid='7490' dateline='1350103063']
Stupidseeker,

[quote]You may have misunderstood my posts. My only opposition was to narrow nationalistic views expressed on this forum by Vivek.[/quote]

To bring an end to such Nationalistic views, why don't we oppose Hindi alone being offcial language?

[quote]Just to be clear I am not advocating imposition on Hindi as the national language. [/quote]

Thank you, not only National even official.

[quote]Some more of my views....IMO, tempering down nationalism of religious or linguistic or racial kind makes for a more inclusive livable society.[/quote]

Agreed, but the current Indian society is not liveable, where governement is not engaging its citizens on their own language. engagaes them with alien languages. The real route to tempering down is to give what they look for. Let's accept all 8th schedule languages as official language sof Indian union.

[quote]Nationalism can only be defined along such parochial lines for perfectly homogenous populations living in an isolated island.[/quote]

South Africa has 11 official languages:[129] Afrikaans, English, Ndebele, Northern Sotho, Sotho, Swazi, Tswana, Tsonga, Venda, Xhosa, and Zulu.

In Bolivia main language spoken is Spanish, although the Guarani, Aymara and Quechua languages are also common and all three, as well as 34 other indigenous languages, are official.

As it is given by some other Multi-Ethnic countries give official status for major Indian languages too, then it will reduce the temper of nationalism... Untill the demands are met such parochial politcs will keep increasing...

[quote]In reality, most if not all societies have all kinds of interest groups living amongst each other, often with different sets of grievances against each other. People just have to learn to address these grievances by negotiating with each other in good faith and arrive at workable solutions to avoid disasters like what happened in East Pakistan and Balkans.[/quote]

You realise the problem, but only the solution you fail to give....

[quote]In the case of imposition of Hindi as the national language there seems to be a decent compromise here. Non-Hindi speaking minorities got English as the official language and the Hindi speaking majority got Hindi as the official language. Both sides got something but not everything they wanted.[/quote]

This is not as decent as you think. This solution given in 1967 gives undue privilege for the Hindi speaking people when compared to other states.
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#40
(12-Oct-2012, 11:24 PM)stupidseeker Wrote: The Bangladeshis protested the indifference of the west pakistanis to the bengali language. The west pakistanis basking in their ideas of the east pakistani who spoke bengali, ate rice, who was short and who was dark couldn't be bothered more. And this indifference gave the opportunity for the Indian armed forces to win their finest victory which they take pride in to this day. Talk about language not being an emotive issue.

I think this is a gross over simplification. Quoting from the following Wikipedia link.

Quote:After the Awami League won all the East Pakistan seats of the Pakistan's National Assembly in the 1970-71 elections, West Pakistan opened talks with the East on constitutional questions about the division of power between the central government and the provinces, as well as the formation of a national government headed by the Awami League.

The talks proved unsuccessful, however, and on March 1, 1971, Pakistani President Yahya Khan indefinitely postponed the pending National Assembly session, precipitating massive civil disobedience in East Pakistan.

In other words having won an absolute majority of seats Mujib was not willing to negotiate. It might sound unfair to expect Mujib to compromise and negotiate away his powers as a PM. But he could have taken this as a opportunity to develop a power sharing formula between the states and the federal govt. He could have played this long game as this might have benefited East Pakistan in the long run. What prevented Mujib from making this compromise? Was it Bengali Nationalism?

Should Bengali (linguistic) Nationalism take some blame for what unfolded in 1971? Thinking


****************
PS added after the original post: Of course I am not saying that the West Pakistanis are not to blame for the genocide that followed.
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#41
First and foremost
Quote:I feel, people in this Free-thinkers community use the word Anecdotal, freely
Quote:So Free thinkers group don't believe in Indian constitution??
Quote:I too wish to see similar discussion on Hindi Privilege, will That happen in this forum??? Not at all I guess...

If you continue with hasty generalizations you'll be banned. And the reason is trolling (point 1 of rules)
Note: You do not need to edit your comments to remove this. Just make sure you don't repeat this.

Too many posts. So can't reply to them individually.

Point 1: Language based governance
I don't see how can I make this argument more understandable. The requisite for governance is "understanding of grass root issues". PERIOD. Language might be an indicator of how assimilated a person is in a culture but IT IS JUST AN INDICATOR. So instead of making an "indicator" as a pre-requisite, why not make the "real attribute" as pre-requisite. To give an example, having spectacles means impaired long distance vision (most likely). An impaired vision is not good say for a fighter pilot. So should the rule for being a fighter pilot be: no spectacles? NO. It should be "no impaired long distance vision". Because spectacles can be worn for other reasons (hyperopia etc.). Indicators are just that. They shouldn't and can't be pre-requisites for a very very wide function called governance.

Grass root issues are value based. Farmers suicide problem is a problem that can be solved even by not knowing the language of the farmer. A musician wanting to preserve his heritage, can be helped irrespective of whether one knows that music. (Typical argument against would be "but the person won't understand the importance of preserving music". This is not required for governance. Governments are supposed to have advisers expert in that field to tell them as to what is important and what is not.)

I am going to replace Language with religion here and show the irrationality of this argument anyways. You are born into a religion. Religion becomes your identity. Religion also is a big big influence on culture (its much bigger contributor than language by the way). Religion also has great heritage. So lets start making "religion a pre-requisite" for governance.

Point 2: Media is not language dependent and neither culture
I will try to elaborate this once more as you seem to miss the point what I am trying to make.
Lets consider a hypothetical experiment. Suppose Tamil Nadu actually historically was Lang (a hypothetical language different than Tamizh) speaking state. Do you think its culture would have been totally different? I don't think so. A language is driven by culture, not the vice versa.

When I say media is not language dependent, I mean that irrespective of "number of languages" we would have the same "quantity" of media. Madhya Pradesh is Hindi speaking state but it has a state dedicated media channel. And every research in economics seem to point towards homogeneity (not diversity) conducive for economic growth.

[NOTE: The following is different point where we can agree to disagree]
A related point. Can you imagine people from two different languages sharing "universal values"? I say yes! Because culture is much more than a language. Hence its also possible to change to a language WITHOUT LOSING ONE BIT OF CULTURE. This change ofcourse doesn't have to be overnight, but has to be very slow. And to be absolutely clear (just to dispel some inherent bias) I am in no way talking about everybody adopting Hindi. Could be any language. I see a huge value in common language BUT cultural diversity, rather than "language diversity" and language related communalism.

The interesting point is UNESCO document talks about preservation, which as per the document "This entails sharing resources at all levels: individual language specialists; local speech community; NGOs; governmental and institutional organizations.". Sounds exactly how music is preserved. Not enforcing it on all individuals but encouraging its use and having a focused group. The idea would be to encourage people to be bilingual by adopting a language of interest apart from the main common language (and repeating again to make sure that I am not misunderstood, this common language can be any language)

Point 3:
I don't know why you keep bringing points about Hindi imposition, when it has already been granted that its wrong. The repeated reference actually point towards "emotional attack" rather than rational. So it will be in your best interest if you don't invoke it every now and then.

EDIT:
And about language based discrimination. Thats wrong! So if Tamizh is not allowed in certain temples, its WRONG! Nothing justifies discrimination on a value neutral thing such as language.
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#42
Apologies for a total aside but Additionally highlighting the troll nature of your comments

envirovivek Wrote:Anyhow when i come to your claim A culture is much more than a language. This sounds like Hindu valuse and cultures are more important than language. Saying this only Tamil alnguage is not being allowed into chidambaram temple. See the below quote from UNESCO article.

Gross equivalence. E.g. Religion says "do this do that", Atheists say "do this do that" so they are same. And how is the temple part related to the first sentence? How can "A culture is much more than language" be inferred to mean "only tamil language will not be allowed in temple"?

envirovivek Wrote:
Kanad Kanhere Wrote:I find it not convincing for establishing "causality". For e.g. I can argue that the number of lyricist is highly proportional to the penetration of that industry. And penetration doesn't depend ON LANGUAGE, but CONTENT. That is the reason Hollywood is famous in some cities more than the state language movies.

If you think content wise Hollywood is best, then I say your world view about movies are wrong. Worlds very good movie industries in contemporary world are Iranian, Korean and some other european movies. If you go Masala movies, commercial movies certainly Hollywood.

Reread your comment and mine. Its strawman and lie fallacy.
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#43
(13-Oct-2012, 03:55 PM)envirovivek Wrote: I will try my best to convince Nirmukta forum as much as possible, untill I get blocked.

You don't need to convince anybody. I can't speak for all of Nirmukta memebers, but I guess quiet a few share my views - I'm quite sympathetic to preserving language, and fully agree that trying to impose Hindi was a bad move. I also agree with the article linked to by stupidseeker which points out a problem with how stereotypes about the south are portrayed (but I disagree with the "now is the time for us to get back even").

But you seem to be more interested in agenda trolling:

Quote:Agenda trolls are those participants who join a forum specifically to pursue an agenda of their own – often a feud or grudge with another member, or perhaps a dispute with some party not participating in that forum.

and that warrants a ban.
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#44
Currently Hindi and English are official languages of the Govt of India. State Govts have their own official languages.

What follows is for those who do not want Hindi as the official language of the Govt of India.

Are you okay with Tamil as official language of TN?
Are you okay with Kannada as official language of Karnataka?
Are you okay with Malayalam as official language of Kerala?
Are you okay with language X being official language of State Y (assume X is official language of State Y)?

If you say yes, to any of the queries above, I would submit that you are being inconsistent. After all, there are a lot of non-tamil speaking people living in TN, lot of non-Kannada speaking people living in Karnataka, ...just as there are are a lot of non-Hindi speaking people living in India.

Tamil Nadu is the only state in India that has refused to give land to a central Govt scheme called Navodaya Vidayalaya. Do you defend the TN Govt's stand, and if so I am curious about why you do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jawahar_Navodaya_Vidyalaya

http://navodaya.gov.in/welcome%20sbs.htm
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#45
Cityboy,

(21-Jan-2013, 06:08 AM)Cityboy Wrote: Tamil Nadu is the only state in India that has refused to give land to a central Govt scheme called Navodaya Vidayalaya. Do you defend the TN Govt's stand, and if so I am curious about why you do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jawahar_Navodaya_Vidyalaya

http://navodaya.gov.in/welcome%20sbs.htm

Thanks for this information. This is the first time I have heard about it though according to the wiki link JNV was established in 1985. But the links do not give the reason why TN refused to give land to this scheme. Does the reason have something to do with Hindi? Or some other political issue from 1980s?

BTW, aren't there any central govt lands in TN?

PS: Added later. Found the following in the wiki link about the Navodaya Schools (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Hindi_...on_of_1986) that gives the background on TN and Navodaya Schools.

Quote:In 1986, Indian Prime minister Rajiv Gandhi introduced the "National Education Policy".[96] This education policy provided for setting up Navodaya Schools, where the DMK claimed teaching of Hindi would be compulsory.[97] The Anna Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (ADMK) led by M. G. Ramachandran (which had split from the DMK in 1972), was in power in Tamil Nadu and the DMK was the main opposition party. Karunanidhi announced an agitation against the opening of Navodaya Schools in Tamil Nadu. On 13 November, the Tamil Nadu Legislative Assembly unanimously passed a resolution demanding the repeal of Part XVII of the constitution and for making English the sole official language of the union.[98][99][100]
On 17 November 1986, DMK members protested against the new education policy by burning Part XVII of the Constitution.[98] 20,000 DMK members including Karunanidhi were arrested.[100] 21 persons committed suicide by self-immolation.[101] Karunanidhi was sentenced to ten weeks of rigorous imprisonment. Ten DMK MLAs including K. Anbazhagan were expelled from the Legislative Assembly by the speaker P. H. Pandian.[98] Rajiv Gandhi assured Members of Parliament from Tamil Nadu that Hindi would not be imposed.[102] As part of the compromise, Navodhaya schools were not started in Tamil Nadu. Currently, Tamil Nadu is the only state in India without Navodhaya schools.[103]

21 people committed suicide fearing Hindi might be taught in Navodaya schools. What a bunch of idiots.
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#46
(21-Jan-2013, 06:08 AM)Cityboy Wrote: Currently Hindi and English are official languages of the Govt of India. State Govts have their own official languages.

Great discovery

Quote: follows is for those who do not want Hindi as the official language of the Govt of India.
Are you okay with Tamil as official language of TN?
Are you okay with Kannada as official language of Karnataka?
Are you okay with Malayalam as official language of Kerala?
Are you okay with language X being official language of State Y (assume X is official language of State Y)?

No to all the above... I don't want any tag attached to any language in relation to government. Let there be equality. Let all the language communities constituting every state receive their government services through their own language and let the government empower them to learn their mother tongue.

Quote: If you say yes, to any of the queries above, I would submit that you are being inconsistent.

I am not still in my medieval mind set as many of the fake free thinkers.... Let's move towards equality. Therefore there is no chance am being in-consistent.

Quote:After all, there are a lot of non-tamil speaking people living in TN, lot of non-Kannada speaking people living in Karnataka, ...just as there are are a lot of non-Hindi speaking people living in India.

Hindi is far more minority language than Bengali and my mother tongue Telugu. Its atrocious to perpetuate that language as killer language of Indian linguistic diversity.

Quote:Tamil Nadu is the only state in India that has refused to give land to a central Govt scheme called Navodaya Vidayalaya. Do you defend the TN Govt's stand, and if so I am curious about why you do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jawahar_Navodaya_Vidyalaya

http://navodaya.gov.in/welcome%20sbs.htm

Tamil Nadu is the only state in which more than 10 people self-immolated themselves for the cause of promoting linguistic equality. Tamil Nadu is the only state which faced our army, which killed hundreds of students protesting on the roads with its merciless brute guns... Anti-Hindi imposition struggles main goal would be spoiled if stupidest Navodaya schools are permitted. I know how many telugu kids are loosing their mother tongue, reading and writing skills because of these Hindi imposition in schools. They learn Telugu as just name sake third language, that too from 6th grade, at times many skip even as third language and opt for Sanskrit-dead language .. This is just inhuman act by allowing the prevailing in-equality to perpetuate in this country. I love my India retain its diversity, as citizen I would always voice for that...

Navodaya schools should be boycotted if this useless three language policy continues... All states should opt for Two language Mother tongue compulsory and English.
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#47
Envirovivek,

I submit that sarcasm - am refering to your comment "great discovery" - does not contribute to healthy dialogue.

Am glad you are consistent in your stand of not being in favor of any one official language for GoI or State Govts.

In TN currently, are citizens forced to receive Govt services in Hindi?

Can you substantiate your claim "Tamil Nadu is the only state which faced our army, which killed hundreds of students protesting on the roads with its merciless brute guns..."?

How is Navodaya Vidyalaya an imposition? I see the Tamil chauvinists imposing their will on the non-chauvinists in TN by refusing to allow Navodayas in TN. Nobody is forcing anyone to attend Navodaya. Can you explain?

Boycott as an exercise of individual choice is perfectly okay - if one does not want to buy say Surf, one is free to not purchase it. However, not allowing Surf to be sold in a State is imposition. Can you comment?

Is not your proposal making mother tongue compulsory also an imposition? What if a person does not want to learn her mother tongue at school and prefers to learn a different language at school?
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#48
(21-Jan-2013, 08:46 AM)Captain Mandrake Wrote: BTW, aren't there any central govt lands in TN?

My understanding is that land policy is a State subject. For central Govt institutions in a State, the State Govt allots land to the Central Govt for the purpose, usually free of cost e.g. IIT in Madras.
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