Dravidian Nationalism
#49
Here is a thought - not in reference to any prior post, but the topic in general.

Nationalism of any kind - Indian or Hindu or Tamil or Dravidian - is something that it is helpful to view with some caution. In many instances, including the Tamil version, its stated objective is different from some unstated effects, that those who buy into may not be aware of.

In the case of Tamil nationalism, ironically in a Brahminical way, it seeks to sweep under the carpet the conflicts of interests between many TN caste groups, other than that between relatively well placed non-Brahmins (high intermediate castes) and Brahmins. By harping on Tamil and making it the key tool for moblization, it denies oxygen to Dalit moblization against say opressionby Vanniars and Thevars, and that of the most backward castes against exploitation by the intermediate castes.

Dravidian nationalism is rational in some ways and deserves credit for it, but it has its own gods - Tamil being one of them. Deification is irrational, even from a person who is rational in some ways.
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#50
(21-Jan-2013, 10:00 PM)Cityboy Wrote: Envirovivek,

I submit that sarcasm - am refering to your comment "great discovery" - does not contribute to healthy dialogue.

Am glad you are consistent in your stand of not being in favor of any one official language for GoI or State Govts.

In TN currently, are citizens forced to receive Govt services in Hindi?

Can you substantiate your claim "Tamil Nadu is the only state which faced our army, which killed hundreds of students protesting on the roads with its merciless brute guns..."?

How is Navodaya Vidyalaya an imposition? I see the Tamil chauvinists imposing their will on the non-chauvinists in TN by refusing to allow Navodayas in TN. Nobody is forcing anyone to attend Navodaya. Can you explain?

Boycott as an exercise of individual choice is perfectly okay - if one does not want to buy say Surf, one is free to not purchase it. However, not allowing Surf to be sold in a State is imposition. Can you comment?

Is not your proposal making mother tongue compulsory also an imposition? What if a person does not want to learn her mother tongue at school and prefers to learn a different language at school?

Neither are you engaging in healthy debate, when you call citizens speaking Telugu. Kannada, malayalam, Marathi and Bengali as mere linguistic chauvinists. Unlike the celebrations by Hindi hegemonists, citizens of other language are not seeking to replace the Hindi by their language, they are seeking let their language be given equal status. Put an end to the upper hand bestowed to single language Hindi. Why not AP high court have court proceedings in Telugu when, High courts of Hindi region are permitted to use Hindi as medium of court language. Why only Hindi speakers have huge chunk of privilege of writing central government exams in Hindi, their own mother tongue, while others are unfairly subjected to write exams by learning alien languages like English and Hindi???

So you mean to say getting kids learn, their mother tongue from childhood is imposition. Irony is most of the people who turn blind eye to Hindi hegemonists has no constructive intention of evolving the unique Indian democracy further by loosening the rigid nature of language policy, instead all you call even asking to learn my own mother tongue is Imposition on my Kid??? After all what for is the democracy. Gone are those days of submitting to twisted and manipulated arguments of the perverted privileged upper castes. I want my family rural relatives, should not be harassed by any central government institutions customer care personnel if they don't know the ill-perceived National language Hindi and additional official language English.

Put an end to keep on beating Tamil and Tamil Nadu alone through your arguments, when it comes to debate about Hindi imposition. Every rightly thinking citizen of this country want their government to speak to them in their own language.

Just agree to disagree, instead of beating around bush. People who lovingly praise the Hindi hegemonists will always call the people who asks for equality as chauvinists. It's Narrow vision of constructing a country and celebration of diversity. No single language gonna bring unity, mutual celebration and exchanges among diversity brings in unity.

Quote:Can you substantiate your claim "Tamil Nadu is the only state which faced our army, which killed hundreds of students protesting on the roads with its merciless brute guns..."?

Our country is not yet matured democracy, We can't expect our country to apologize to people, accept the number of killings and trauma experienced by people in those days. At-least official records claim 70 people killed in soldier and police firing into public protest by students. Just check in Wikipedia-Anti Hindi agitation page.

(21-Jan-2013, 10:00 PM)Cityboy Wrote: How is Navodaya Vidyalaya an imposition? I see the Tamil chauvinists imposing their will on the non-chauvinists in TN by refusing to allow Navodayas in TN. Nobody is forcing anyone to attend Navodaya. Can you explain?

Its futile job to explain, when you call getting kids educated in mother tongue is chauvinism, let your unsubstantiated higher science be with you. Just give a try in knowing Language policy of Navodya schools Which runs contrary to the two language policy of Tamil Nadu.

Quote:In TN currently, are citizens forced to receive Govt services in Hindi?

Whyy single out TN alone???? Let\s put an end to this politics of blaming TN for all the fights of linguistic equality in this country. I am Telugu myself who involve in debates here.

Why central government institutions are passively imposing Hindi in Non-Hindi states???? Why still banks carry Hindi and English alone in its challans and customer care services??? Why the crucial piece of informations on pesticides, medicines and other consumer products it carries only Hindi & English??? Aren't we seeing people are running behind the Hindi thinking it is national language, many stop learning mother tongue too in place of HIndi!!! This is far more inhumane injustice given in our constitution, which should be removed as early as possible, Let all 8th schedule languages be official language of Union. And respective states can fund the respective language promotion in central government functioning and communications.
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#51
I kindly request Moderator of this thread to Change the tile from Dravidian Nationalism to Dravidian Movement,

Thank you
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#52
Envirovivek, you are again regressing to emotionally loaded irrational arguments. I will request you to stick to logical/rational discussion and not lash out at arguers unnecessarily.

(22-Jan-2013, 04:03 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Neither are you engaging in healthy debate, when you call citizens speaking Telugu. Kannada, malayalam, Marathi and Bengali as mere linguistic chauvinists.

Where has this been said?

(22-Jan-2013, 04:03 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Unlike the celebrations by Hindi hegemonists, citizens of other language are not seeking to replace the Hindi by their language, they are seeking let their language be given equal status. Put an end to the upper hand bestowed to single language Hindi. Why not AP high court have court proceedings in Telugu when, High courts of Hindi region are permitted to use Hindi as medium of court language. Why only Hindi speakers have huge chunk of privilege of writing central government exams in Hindi, their own mother tongue, while others are unfairly subjected to write exams by learning alien languages like English and Hindi???

Why this rant? Who is here supporting Hindi hegemony? Its just an emotional outburst trying to obfuscate the issue.

(22-Jan-2013, 04:03 AM)envirovivek Wrote: So you mean to say getting kids learn, their mother tongue from childhood is imposition.

The question put forward was this //Is not your proposal making mother tongue compulsory also an imposition?//

Why are you twisting its meaning and replying absurdly?


(22-Jan-2013, 04:03 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Irony is most of the people who turn blind eye to Hindi hegemonists has no constructive intention of evolving the unique Indian democracy further by loosening the rigid nature of language policy, instead all you call even asking to learn my own mother tongue is Imposition on my Kid??? After all what for is the democracy. Gone are those days of submitting to twisted and manipulated arguments of the perverted privileged upper castes. I want my family rural relatives, should not be harassed by any central government institutions customer care personnel if they don't know the ill-perceived National language Hindi and additional official language English.

Put an end to keep on beating Tamil and Tamil Nadu alone through your arguments, when it comes to debate about Hindi imposition. Every rightly thinking citizen of this country want their government to speak to them in their own language.

Just agree to disagree, instead of beating around bush. People who lovingly praise the Hindi hegemonists will always call the people who asks for equality as chauvinists. It's Narrow vision of constructing a country and celebration of diversity. No single language gonna bring unity, mutual celebration and exchanges among diversity brings in unity.

Another totally irrelevant rant. This is for the 1 billionth time, Hindi imposition is wrong.


(22-Jan-2013, 04:03 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Its futile job to explain, when you call getting kids educated in mother tongue is chauvinism, let your unsubstantiated higher science be with you. Just give a try in knowing Language policy of Navodya schools Which runs contrary to the two language policy of Tamil Nadu.

Ignoring the first part of the sentence which is nothing but random lashing, the objection is against "two language policy?". THIS IS IMPOSITION.. Why does the state government impose such rules?

(22-Jan-2013, 04:03 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Why central government institutions are passively imposing Hindi in Non-Hindi states???? Why still banks carry Hindi and English alone in its challans and customer care services??? Why the crucial piece of informations on pesticides, medicines and other consumer products it carries only Hindi & English??? Aren't we seeing people are running behind the Hindi thinking it is national language, many stop learning mother tongue too in place of HIndi!!! This is far more inhumane injustice given in our constitution, which should be removed as early as possible, Let all 8th schedule languages be official language of Union. And respective states can fund the respective language promotion in central government functioning and communications.

I am not aware if language diversity is sacrosanct as per the constitution. If it is, then your objection is valid. If it is not, then everybody has a right to contest it. I am against "enforced" diversity. State can promote it, but should not enforce it.


Anyways, I have to let you know that going forward any such emotionally loaded arguments might warrant a ban.
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#53
(21-Jan-2013, 06:08 AM)Cityboy Wrote: Tamil Nadu is the only state in India that has refused to give land to a central Govt scheme called Navodaya Vidayalaya. Do you defend the TN Govt's stand, and if so I am curious about why you do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jawahar_Navodaya_Vidyalaya

http://navodaya.gov.in/welcome%20sbs.htm

But then there are other schools (eg. Sainik School http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sainik_School ) operated by the Central Govt, more precisely Ministry of Defense that have outfits in Tamil Nadu. Wonder why there was no opposition to those schools? I would be surprised if Hindi is not taught in these schools.

So why the opposition to Navodaya Vidayalaya in Tamil Nadu?

I understand the opposition to Hindi being a requirement for a Govt Job but I do not understand the objection to Hindi being taught (mandatorily or optionally) in schools. In my opinion this objection is no different from the objection to English being taught in schools. The more languages you are proficient in the more marketable you are. If at all anything you will have a leg up on the Hindi chauvinist who would have only learnt Hindi and English.
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#54
(22-Jan-2013, 05:54 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: Envirovivek, you are again regressing to emotionally loaded irrational arguments. I will request you to stick to logical/rational discussion and not lash out at arguers unnecessarily.

I hope people use the words chauvinism in appropriate places, not where, as a citizen I seek my government to render the services to me in my mother tongue. If people so generous to use such demeaning words. And sir I need not learn from you which is rational and irrational from you.

Quote:Where has this been said?

To recognize that first you have to acknowledge that problem exists in our language policy,. only then you will see the mistake in calling chauvinist about people who seek equality for their mother tongue.

(22-Jan-2013, 04:03 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Why this rant? Who is here supporting Hindi hegemony? Its just an emotional outburst trying to obfuscate the issue.

Even after I said hundred times in previous writings, that my demand is no where nearer to chauvinism and imposition, many here still call my demand for equality as imposition and chauvinism. But I have to accept that you are not supporting Hindi hegemony the moment you say that right??? All the people who are indifferent to the prevailing in-equality are as equal to Hindi hegemonists.

Quote:The question put forward was this //Is not your proposal making mother tongue compulsory also an imposition?//

Why are you twisting its meaning and replying absurdly?

Oh really??? My straight reply is twisted one and your twisted arguments are the rational arguments???

Making Hindi compulsory in Non-Hindi states is not imposition but asking people to learn Mother tongue compulsorily is imposition. No other way to retain my Telugu Identity other than getting Telugu education compulsory, because in this country Hindi is given undue advantage obviously people are leaving their mother tongue and learning Hindi instead. This equals to cultural genocide.

I must thank Kiran Kumar CM of Andhra pradesh, recently in World Telugu conference made Telugu education compulsory from Primary classes. Thank you Mr. CM I like your Rational in doing that. Don't mind some people using the word Rationality and imposition wrongly against the oppressed. That's cruel argument of people belonging to oppressing community and who take undue advantage out of Hindi hegemony.

Quote: totally irrelevant rant. This is for the 1 billionth time, Hindi imposition is wrong.

And why do you think what all I wrote is reply to you??? I wrote to Mr. City boy who supports Hindi imposition. And for you too, Just saying HIndi imposition wrong is not enough, you must say solution to absolve the mistakes. Its easy to belittle the suggested solutions, such an act is nothing more than spoiler act.

Quote:Ignoring the first part of the sentence which is nothing but random lashing, the objection is against "two language policy?". THIS IS IMPOSITION.. Why does the state government impose such rules?

OOOPs Two language formula of a state is imposition but, three language formula of union is not an imposition???

 
Quote:I am not aware if language diversity is sacrosanct as per the constitution. If it is, then your objection is valid. If it is not, then everybody has a right to contest it. I am against "enforced" diversity. State can promote it, but should not enforce it.

Really???? Did I say its sacrosanct??? I am learning new new philosophies here, thank you. "Enforced diversity". Before raising finger against states, lets ask Rajbasha ministry to stop passively imposing hindi by giving incentives.... The language which is not in use by government cease to be in use among people too. It's my fundamental right to stand for my language at any cost.
Constitution has empowered us to do that.

Quote:
Anyways, I have to let you know that going forward any such emotionally loaded arguments might warrant a ban.

Its a surprise if you didn't ban me....

And Finally Many here are getting confused in determining which is imposition. I welcome you people to listen the following channel and Videos. Hope leading sociologists and academicians may answer why emotional Integration of country is far more important. When people use irrational arguments to undermine the emotional integration of this country using twisted arguments its my responsibility to respond them rightly.

http://www.youtube.com/user/LinguisticEq...ature=mhee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la0paInnjmg

Good bye...
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#55
(22-Jan-2013, 08:36 AM)Captain Mandrake Wrote:
(21-Jan-2013, 06:08 AM)Cityboy Wrote: Tamil Nadu is the only state in India that has refused to give land to a central Govt scheme called Navodaya Vidayalaya. Do you defend the TN Govt's stand, and if so I am curious about why you do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jawahar_Navodaya_Vidyalaya

http://navodaya.gov.in/welcome%20sbs.htm

But then there are other schools (eg. Sainik School http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sainik_School ) operated by the Central Govt, more precisely Ministry of Defense that have outfits in Tamil Nadu. Wonder why there was no opposition to those schools? I would be surprised if Hindi is not taught in these schools.

So why the opposition to Navodaya Vidayalaya in Tamil Nadu?

I understand the opposition to Hindi being a requirement for a Govt Job but I do not understand the objection to Hindi being taught (mandatorily or optionally) in schools. In my opinion this objection is no different from the objection to English being taught in schools. The more languages you are proficient in the more marketable you are. If at all anything you will have a leg up on the Hindi chauvinist who would have only learnt Hindi and English.

And Mr. Mandrake Why you need to indulge in debates as if you don't know anything about Tamil and Tamil Nadu state?? When you yourself seems to know Tamil??? Why you unnecessarily ask for naming a Thread as Dravidian Nationalism by persuading me into this topic???
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#56
(21-Jan-2013, 06:08 AM)Cityboy Wrote: Currently Hindi and English are official languages of the Govt of India. State Govts have their own official languages.

(21-Jan-2013, 09:40 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Great discovery

(21-Jan-2013, 10:00 PM)Cityboy Wrote: Envirovivek,

I submit that sarcasm - am refering to your comment "great discovery" - does not contribute to healthy dialogue ....

How is Navodaya Vidyalaya an imposition? I see the Tamil chauvinists imposing their will on the non-chauvinists in TN by refusing to allow Navodayas in TN. Nobody is forcing anyone to attend Navodaya. Can you explain?

(22-Jan-2013, 04:03 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Neither are you engaging in healthy debate, when you call citizens speaking Telugu. Kannada, malayalam, Marathi and Bengali as mere linguistic chauvinists ...

Envirovivek,

The quotes above are presented in the order in which they were posted by the two of us.

Thanks for implicitly acknowledging that you were not engaging in healthy debate with your sarcastic "Great discovery" remark quoted above.

Regarding your claim that I am/was not engaging in healthy debate, I disagree and submit the following:

As is clear from the quote where I used the label chauvinists, I used it to refer to those imposing their will on others in TN by refusing to allow Navodaya schools in TN, and not to refer to the large group of people you mention above.
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#57
(23-Jan-2013, 12:04 AM)Cityboy Wrote:
(21-Jan-2013, 06:08 AM)Cityboy Wrote: Currently Hindi and English are official languages of the Govt of India. State Govts have their own official languages.

(21-Jan-2013, 09:40 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Great discovery

(21-Jan-2013, 10:00 PM)Cityboy Wrote: Envirovivek,

I submit that sarcasm - am refering to your comment "great discovery" - does not contribute to healthy dialogue ....

How is Navodaya Vidyalaya an imposition? I see the Tamil chauvinists imposing their will on the non-chauvinists in TN by refusing to allow Navodayas in TN. Nobody is forcing anyone to attend Navodaya. Can you explain?

(22-Jan-2013, 04:03 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Neither are you engaging in healthy debate, when you call citizens speaking Telugu. Kannada, malayalam, Marathi and Bengali as mere linguistic chauvinists ...

Envirovivek,

The quotes above are presented in the order in which they were posted by the two of us.

Thanks for implicitly acknowledging that you were not engaging in healthy debate with your sarcastic "Great discovery" remark quoted above.

Regarding your claim that I am/was not engaging in healthy debate, I disagree and submit the following:

As is clear from the quote where I used the label chauvinists, I used it to refer to those imposing their will on others in TN by refusing to allow Navodaya schools in TN, and not to refer to the large group of people you mention above.

Its the collective decision Tamil Nadu state people through Anti-Hindi imposition protests in 1960's that Hindi would not entertained as a compulsory subjects in Tamil Nadu. Which was given acceptance in the constitution for Tamil Nadu state alone. And Navodaya Vidyalaya are set of schools opened in Non-Hindi states with the sole purpose of encouraging exchange of students between Hindi and Non-Hindi states. Why between Hindi and Non-Hindi alone, why not between AP and TN, AP & Mizoram, AP & Bengal, TN & Assam, TN & Punjab, TN & Maharashtra and AP and Kerala??? Why such combination of exchnage of students is not possible???? Therefore from the very basic design of these Hindi hegemonic schools we could understand the intention of Hindi imposition. The admission to these schools at 6th grade needs entrance exams written in Maths, science & Hindi... Come on why Hindi again here at the level of Entrance itself???? Its utter crap.

Without understanding the constitutional privilege given for Tamil Nadu, you calling the elected government's decision as chauvinism is uncalled for. TO CALL THIS DECISION AS CHAUVINISM ONE MUST BE OF INDIFFERENT NATURE TO THE PREVAILING INEQUALITY. STOP ENGAGING IN BLAME GAME TOWARDS THE OPPRESSED COMMUNITIES. Therefore such a rant deserves the kind of reply I gave.

If my memory serves right, even Maharashtra made Marathi compulsory in CBSE schools. Its the legitimate desire of elected governments to take necessary steps like making Mother tongue compulsory based on the expert advice from Education researchers and Pedagogics researchers. To call such an act as chauvinism equals to calling all the states made mother tongue education compulsory as Chauvinists.
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#58
Envirovivek,

You are really not addressing the point made by cityboy in the post below.

** Regarding your claim that I am/was not engaging in healthy debate, I disagree and submit the following:

As is clear from the quote where I used the label chauvinists, I used it to refer to those imposing their will on others in TN by refusing to allow Navodaya schools in TN, and not to refer to the large group of people you mention above.**


At the very least acknowledge that you (and not cityboy) are the one who took an unnecessary confrontational attitude in this exchange. If you do that may be we can see some healthy debate. Otherwise it is really pointless to engage you.
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#59
(23-Jan-2013, 12:26 AM)envirovivek Wrote: Its the collective decision Tamil Nadu state people through Anti-Hindi imposition protests in 1960's that Hindi would not entertained as a compulsory subjects in Tamil Nadu. Which was given acceptance in the constitution for Tamil Nadu state alone. And Navodaya Vidyalaya are set of schools opened in Non-Hindi states with the sole purpose of encouraging exchange of students between Hindi and Non-Hindi states. Why between Hindi and Non-Hindi alone, why not between AP and TN, AP & Mizoram, AP & Bengal, TN & Assam, TN & Punjab, TN & Maharashtra and AP and Kerala??? Why such combination of exchnage of students is not possible???? Therefore from the very basic design of these Hindi hegemonic schools we could understand the intention of Hindi imposition. The admission to these schools at 6th grade needs entrance exams written in Maths, science & Hindi... Come on why Hindi again here at the level of Entrance itself???? Its utter crap.

Without understanding the constitutional privilege given for Tamil Nadu, you calling the elected government's decision as chauvinism is uncalled for. TO CALL THIS DECISION AS CHAUVINISM ONE MUST BE OF INDIFFERENT NATURE TO THE PREVAILING INEQUALITY. STOP ENGAGING IN BLAME GAME TOWARDS THE OPPRESSED COMMUNITIES. Therefore such a rant deserves the kind of reply I gave.

If my memory serves right, even Maharashtra made Marathi compulsory in CBSE schools. Its the legitimate desire of elected governments to take necessary steps like making Mother tongue compulsory based on the expert advice from Education researchers and Pedagogics researchers. To call such an act as chauvinism equals to calling all the states made mother tongue education compulsory as Chauvinists.

None of the sentences in this paragraph address the issue. The only interpretations possible are
1. Tackle Hindi Imposition by another imposition against Hindi
2. Imposition justified because there is Hindi imposition.

Neither is remotely rational. And since you show incapacity to discuss rationally, I am banning you.
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#60
In this article the author emphasises that Hindi is just another regional language of India.

http://www.dnaindia.com/opinion/column_f...ny_1310400

Quote:Speaking about Hindi as a national language is no different from speaking about Hinduism as India’s official cultural expression. Hindi is a great language, but it is not any more national than Marathi or Kannada, or Bengali or Telugu. Ironically, it was left to the MNS to point out the obvious: that Hindi is just another regional language of India.

If this is true then why do the navodaya schools insist on teaching hindi in regions where it is not as widely spoken ? And what is wrong with the two language formula that envirovivek proposed i.e the local language along with English ??

Can anyone tell me which three languages will be taught in a navodaya school in a state in the cowbelt e.g Uttar Pradesh and one in southern India, say Tamill nadu ??
And why is there an insistence that prospective students clear a hindi entrance exam to get admission to these schools as envirovivek mentioned above ??
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