Guys, We Have A SERIOUS Problem...
#1
Please read this article from Time Magazine.
And this article from The Guardian.
And this article by B. R. Ambedkar. When I came across Ambedkar's article, I simply thought that it was a false shastra that was floating around. Now, I'm not so sure...
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#2
(10-Oct-2010, 06:19 AM)TTCUSM Wrote: Please read this article from Time Magazine.
And this article from The Guardian.
And this article by B. R. Ambedkar. When I came across Ambedkar's article, I simply thought that it was a false shastra that was floating around. Now, I'm not so sure...

People in the Vedic age had a primitive understanding of nature and it shouldn't be surprising to see verses like that. The real serious problem is those primitive books are considered as eternally existing and the final word on knowledge.

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#3
Of course, irrational beliefs based on primitive texts are a serious problem.
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#4
(10-Oct-2010, 10:38 AM)Lije Wrote:
(10-Oct-2010, 06:19 AM)TTCUSM Wrote: Please read this article from Time Magazine.
And this article from The Guardian.
And this article by B. R. Ambedkar. When I came across Ambedkar's article, I simply thought that it was a false shastra that was floating around. Now, I'm not so sure...

People in the Vedic age had a primitive understanding of nature and it shouldn't be surprising to see verses like that. The real serious problem is those primitive books are considered as eternally existing and the final word on knowledge.

A little background information about me: I come from a family of South Indian Saktas. Our deity is Lalita/Tripura Sundari, an incarnation of Parvati. When I was growing up, I heard stories about this kind of activity going on. Supposedly, it was prevalent in Bengal and Northeast India until the British suppressed it. However, I passed these stories off as insidious rumors. After all, ahimsa is a fundamental aspect of Hinduism, and the British were a foreign colonizing power. It's entirely possible that they were making stuff up in order to justify their rule (White Man's Burden).

Then, a few months ago, I discovered a video on Youtube about a Hindu sect called the Aghoris. I was absolutely horrified by what I saw. After seeing the video, the stories (which I had previously passed off as rumors) seemed a LOT more plausible.

Now, I guess we should focus on how to put a stop to these barbaric practices...
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#5
(10-Oct-2010, 07:26 PM)TTCUSM Wrote: Now, I guess we should focus on how to put a stop to these barbaric practices...

During the past few months, I've been thinking about how we can put a stop to these activities. Here are the options that I have come up with:

Censored [unacceptable content removed by admin]

2) Raise Awareness.
This option involves raising awareness about the issue. If we tell people to stop doing the things described in the article, they just might listen to us.
Drawback #1: Many Kali-worshipers probably don't know that these activities are happening. I didn't find out about them until after I graduated from college. If we start telling people that their gods and goddesses demand sacrifice, they might start doing it.
Drawback #2: We might create a moral panic. During the Middle Ages, Jews and witches were accused of engaging in the same activities. Both groups experienced a backlash from their host societies.

3) Enforce the Law.
This option involves enforcing secular laws. If someone is caught engaging in the activities described in the article, punish them for murder. IIRC, the Government of India awards the death penalty for these activities.
Drawback: It only addresses the symptoms. It does not deal with the underlying disease.

4) Educate Them.
This option is more covert. We can provide the people in these villages with secular education. During their education, we can tell them that ahimsa has been an integral part of Hinduism thanks to Buddhist and Jain influences. Any post-Buddhist scriptures (like the Kalika-Purana mentioned in Ambedkar's article) are aberrations. If they believe their religion doesn't require sacrifice, they won't do it.
Drawback: I can't think of any at this moment.
Benefits: Since we are providing education, this will give us a great opportunity to promote science and free thought.
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#6
(11-Oct-2010, 03:13 AM)TTCUSM Wrote:
(10-Oct-2010, 07:26 PM)TTCUSM Wrote: Now, I guess we should focus on how to put a stop to these barbaric practices...

During the past few months, I've been thinking about how we can put a stop to these activities. Here are the options that I have come up with:

Censored.

2) Raise Awareness.
This option involves raising awareness about the issue. If we tell people to stop doing the things described in the article, they just might listen to us.
Drawback #1: Many Kali-worshipers probably don't know that these activities are happening. I didn't find out about them until after I graduated from college. If we start telling people that their gods and goddesses demand sacrifice, they might start doing it.
Drawback #2: We might create a moral panic. During the Middle Ages, Jews and witches were accused of engaging in the same activities. Both groups experienced a backlash from their host societies.

3) Enforce the Law.
This option involves enforcing secular laws. If someone is caught engaging in the activities described in the article, punish them for murder. IIRC, the Government of India awards the death penalty for these activities.
Drawback: It only addresses the symptoms. It does not deal with the underlying disease.

4) Educate Them.
This option is more covert. We can provide the people in these villages with secular education. During their education, we can tell them that ahimsa has been an integral part of Hinduism thanks to Buddhist and Jain influences. Any post-Buddhist scriptures (like the Kalika-Purana mentioned in Ambedkar's article) are aberrations. If they believe their religion doesn't require sacrifice, they won't do it.
Drawback: I can't think of any at this moment.
Benefits: Since we are providing education, this will give us a great opportunity to promote science and free thought.

TTCUSM let me ask you, do you believe in your personal hindu god / goddess?

Now for your options:-

Censored? WTF are you talking about? We live in civil society and this is 2010. You just cannot round up people and Censored !

There are people like Prof Nayak educating at the grass root level against superstition.
Of course education is the way to overcome these horrific practices along with implementation of the law against killing people.
And I must add that the education must be against all irrational thought including all religion and their scriptures. People need an education in secular humanism not some cherry picked version of religion. Secular humanism must replace religion.
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#7
(11-Oct-2010, 03:13 AM)TTCUSM Wrote: 1) Censored.

You can't be serious. We will not tolerate anyone that suggests perpetuating violence against people. Please refrain from making such suggestions in the future.

Quote:We can provide the people in these villages with secular education.

Who is 'we'?

Quote:During their education, we can tell them that ahimsa has been an integral part of Hinduism thanks to Buddhist and Jain influences.

Now why the hell would we go and lie about Hinduism to these people? Cherry-picking "facts" about Hinduism is the realm of apologists, not Freethinkers.

Listen once and for all, TTCUSM. We aim to replace religion with reason-based alternatives. If you are interested in reformation of the religion, there are plenty of people ready to join hands with you. Nirmukta has a slightly different agenda, as you can see. We are not trying to re-define religion in progressive terms, but to replace religion and religious/superstitious thinking with moral & rational alternatives. You may choose to cherry-pick one convenient progressive interpretation of Hinduism to teach these people, but the ultimate solution is to get rid of the influence that religions have over society. So while you're working on mitigating the harm caused by such superstitions by whitewashing religion, allowing for other superstitions to continue to fester, we here will continue to criticize religion in general and work towards the removal of its influence over public affairs.

Check out this article from over a year ago on another obscure and disgusting religious practice: http://nirmukta.com/2009/04/20/dancing-w...st-bengal/

Edit: Please state for us explicitly if you subscribe to any religion. No muddling. If you are only interested in pushing Hinduism on us here on these forums, I suggest making a dignified exit before you receive the inevitable boot.

"Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian"
~ J.B.S.Haldane, on being asked to falsify evolution.
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#8
(11-Oct-2010, 04:18 PM)Sajit Wrote: Now for your options:-

Censored? WTF are you talking about? We live in civil society and this is 2010. You just cannot round up people and Censored !

Oh dear. My comments have been misinterpreted.
I was not advocating option #1; I was simply enumerating all the alternatives that are available to us (this option came to my mind because it was used by Cortez against the Aztecs).
I agree with you completely-- option #1 is not relevant in today's society.

(11-Oct-2010, 04:18 PM)Sajit Wrote: There are people like Prof Nayak educating at the grass root level against superstition.

Good.

(11-Oct-2010, 04:18 PM)Sajit Wrote: Of course education is the way to overcome these horrific practices along with implementation of the law against killing people.
And I must add that the education must be against all irrational thought including all religion and their scriptures. People need an education in secular humanism not some cherry picked version of religion. Secular humanism must replace religion.

I agree with you completely.
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#9
(12-Oct-2010, 04:14 AM)TTCUSM Wrote:
(11-Oct-2010, 04:18 PM)Sajit Wrote: Now for your options:-

Censored? WTF are you talking about? We live in civil society and this is 2010. You just cannot round up people and Censored !

Oh dear. My comments have been misinterpreted.
I was not advocating option #1; I was simply enumerating all the alternatives that are available to us (this option came to my mind because it was used by Cortez against the Aztecs).
I agree with you completely-- option #1 is not relevant in today's society.

(11-Oct-2010, 04:18 PM)Sajit Wrote: There are people like Prof Nayak educating at the grass root level against superstition.

Good.

(11-Oct-2010, 04:18 PM)Sajit Wrote: Of course education is the way to overcome these horrific practices along with implementation of the law against killing people.
And I must add that the education must be against all irrational thought including all religion and their scriptures. People need an education in secular humanism not some cherry picked version of religion. Secular humanism must replace religion.

I agree with you completely.

Ok. Since you agree with what I said completely, can we assume that you are an atheist when it comes to hindu beliefs as well? And you understand that 'hinduism' is irrational like any other religion?
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#10
(12-Oct-2010, 08:41 AM)Sajit Wrote:
(12-Oct-2010, 04:14 AM)TTCUSM Wrote:
(11-Oct-2010, 04:18 PM)Sajit Wrote: Now for your options:-

Censored? WTF are you talking about? We live in civil society and this is 2010. You just cannot round up people and Censored !

Oh dear. My comments have been misinterpreted.
I was not advocating option #1; I was simply enumerating all the alternatives that are available to us (this option came to my mind because it was used by Cortez against the Aztecs).
I agree with you completely-- option #1 is not relevant in today's society.

(11-Oct-2010, 04:18 PM)Sajit Wrote: There are people like Prof Nayak educating at the grass root level against superstition.

Good.

(11-Oct-2010, 04:18 PM)Sajit Wrote: Of course education is the way to overcome these horrific practices along with implementation of the law against killing people.
And I must add that the education must be against all irrational thought including all religion and their scriptures. People need an education in secular humanism not some cherry picked version of religion. Secular humanism must replace religion.

I agree with you completely.

Ok. Since you agree with what I said completely, can we assume that you are an atheist when it comes to hindu beliefs as well? And you understand that 'hinduism' is irrational like any other religion?

Sajit,

I am not an atheist. I stated in my introductory post that I was (and still am) a Hindu.
And yes, I do understand that there are plenty of irrational beliefs in 'Hinduism".
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#11
This issue was brought up on Richard Dawkins's website.

This is what Dawkins himself has to say:

Quote:I could just about buy that if he had convinced the dopey parents that it was their sacred duty to some god or other to sacrifice their daughter, maybe the quickest way for her to get to heaven or something like that. But, according to this news story, they did it because they thought it would make them rich. That seems to me to put them in a class of wickedness at least on a par with the tantrik villain, if not in a class of their own.

Richard
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#12
(20-Oct-2010, 04:32 AM)TTCUSM Wrote:
(12-Oct-2010, 08:41 AM)Sajit Wrote:
(12-Oct-2010, 04:14 AM)TTCUSM Wrote:
(11-Oct-2010, 04:18 PM)Sajit Wrote: Now for your options:-

Censored? WTF are you talking about? We live in civil society and this is 2010. You just cannot round up people and Censored !

Oh dear. My comments have been misinterpreted.
I was not advocating option #1; I was simply enumerating all the alternatives that are available to us (this option came to my mind because it was used by Cortez against the Aztecs).
I agree with you completely-- option #1 is not relevant in today's society.

(11-Oct-2010, 04:18 PM)Sajit Wrote: There are people like Prof Nayak educating at the grass root level against superstition.

Good.

(11-Oct-2010, 04:18 PM)Sajit Wrote: Of course education is the way to overcome these horrific practices along with implementation of the law against killing people.
And I must add that the education must be against all irrational thought including all religion and their scriptures. People need an education in secular humanism not some cherry picked version of religion. Secular humanism must replace religion.

I agree with you completely.

Ok. Since you agree with what I said completely, can we assume that you are an atheist when it comes to hindu beliefs as well? And you understand that 'hinduism' is irrational like any other religion?

Sajit,

I am not an atheist. I stated in my introductory post that I was (and still am) a Hindu.
And yes, I do understand that there are plenty of irrational beliefs in 'Hinduism".

I was just reconfirming that since you said that you agree with me completely. Clearly you don't agree. Belief in any god is an irrational belief as far as Nirmukta is concerned.

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