Manifesto of Charvaka Movement
#13
The single most important issue underlying every single problem in India is a on-going conflict between the Constitution of India (India's "New Dharma") and Dictates of Religions ("Old Dharma", whether Hinduism, Christianity or Islam). Because staunch adherents of these three religions have no respect for the Constitution of India, they indulge in all kinds of antisocial behavior. The behavior of Khap Panchayat is a classic example.

Yes, the Indian Constitution is imperfect. Many aspects of it need to be amended in the course of time. However, no citizen should look at it as a guideline, which he can choose to violate at convenience. Because the vast majority of Indians think along those lines, their actions also reflect that thinking. That is why lawlessness is so rampant in India. Because of this lack of respect, a RSS man might decide to take the law into his own hands and decide to kill a Muslim or an Atheist. Today, such a man might go scott free in India. In fact that is what they did to Gandhi.

Charvakas are particularly vulnerable to the criticism that they are anarchists and lawless in pursuit of their happiness. There is no dearth for religious people who follow this path. If Charvakas were to spread their message in India, they must project an image of responsible people in the society whose pursuit of happiness is "not in violation of the Constitution (Law)." This sets them apart from the religious frauds who violate the law all the time. Besides, by strengthening the Law, Charvakas gain protection from the religious fanatics who stop at nothing to destroy people believing Charvaka philosophy.

We must keep in mind the fact that the disdain Charvakas had for rituals had to do with their opposition to decadent Brahmanism. And their goal to "go after sensual pleasures" was to counter Upanishadic exhortation to "control your senses." In fact this Upanishadic dictum was meant for corrupt Brahmins and Kshatriyas. Charvakas were mere reactionaries. They did not have a comprehensive doctrine of their own. Partly because of this, they made fools of themselves in the eyes of the rest of the society. Modern Charvakas could develop a comprehensive philosophy, which would be humanistic, responsible, egalitarian, freethinking, and atheistic. To gain respect, credibility, support and followers in the society, Charvakas must project the image of law-abiding citizens who support human rights under the Constitution, and oppose anarchism and oppression from any source -government or organized religion.
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#14
You state that

C. Charvakas will behave in the society as models of morally responsible, freethinking, reasonable, happy-go-lucky people. In the pursuit of their happiness, Charvakas will not violate the rights and welfare of others in the society.

The single most important issue that needs to be fought in a non-violent manner is the issue of why religous people get away with insisting that there is a God/Allah/Yahweh/Jesus Christ. Should not Charvakas be more proactive in moving India towards an atheistic society and have the Constitution of India amended accordingly?
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#15
Question: The single most important issue that needs to be fought in a non-violent manner is the issue of why religious people get away with insisting that there is a God/Allah/Yahweh/Jesus Christ. Should not Charvakas be more proactive in moving India towards an atheistic society and have the Constitution of India amended accordingly?

Answer: Of course. Charvakas can play any active role they want in reforming the society. In fact I think it is imperative that they do so in a responsible way. They should fight against the government sponsoring religions. They must be the catalysts for change.

All I am saying is that whatever activities they indulge in should be within the framework of the Constitution. If they do not like some aspect of the Constitution, they should struggle to amend it by raising people's awareness about it and urging lawmakers to follow through.

The problem with Charvakas in the ancient times was that all they had to offer was opposition to the then Constitution -Brahmanism. They did not offer any alternatives. They opposed rituals of Brahmanism, and opposed Yogic restraints of Upanishadism. All that they accomplished by doing this was to earn the notoriety of being irresponsible anarchists. Modern day Charvakas must understand the fundamental aspects of ancient Charvaka movement, and modify them appropriately to fit the modern times. If we are not capable of doing this, we would not be any different than the followers of Brahmanism whose brains are frozen in ancient times. Charvakas must show to the world that our brains are not frozen in ancient times. Not only are we anti-religion but also we have something new to offer them.
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#16
(16-Sep-2010, 10:26 PM)K. P. S. Kamath Wrote: Question: The single most important issue that needs to be fought in a non-violent manner is the issue of why religious people get away with insisting that there is a God/Allah/Yahweh/Jesus Christ. Should not Charvakas be more proactive in moving India towards an atheistic society and have the Constitution of India amended accordingly?

Answer: Of course. Charvakas can play any active role they want in reforming the society. In fact I think it is imperative that they do so in a responsible way. They should fight against the government sponsoring religions. They must be the catalysts for change.

All I am saying is that whatever activities they indulge in should be within the framework of the Constitution. If they do not like some aspect of the Constitution, they should struggle to amend it by raising people's awareness about it and urging lawmakers to follow through.

The problem with Charvakas in the ancient times was that all they had to offer was opposition to the then Constitution -Brahmanism. They did not offer any alternatives. They opposed rituals of Brahmanism, and opposed Yogic restraints of Upanishadism. All that they accomplished by doing this was to earn the notoriety of being irresponsible anarchists. Modern day Charvakas must understand the fundamental aspects of ancient Charvaka movement, and modify them appropriately to fit the modern times. If we are not capable of doing this, we would not be any different than the followers of Brahmanism whose brains are frozen in ancient times. Charvakas must show to the world that our brains are not frozen in ancient times. Not only are we anti-religion but also we have something new to offer them.

I like what the Charvakas stand for from what I have read in this thread. One question however, do modern Charvakas eat beef, that is cow and bull meat?
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#17
Shantanu said: I like what the Charvakas stand for from what I have read in this thread. One question however, do modern Charvakas eat beef, that is cow and bull meat?

My response: Charvakas can eat or not eat any damned thing they want (except for human flesh) smile Charvakas are free spirited people who are rationalists, atheists and hedonists. However, their pursuit of pleasure should not come at the expense of others.
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#18
(18-Sep-2010, 12:55 AM)K. P. S. Kamath Wrote: Shantanu said: I like what the Charvakas stand for from what I have read in this thread. One question however, do modern Charvakas eat beef, that is cow and bull meat?

My response: Charvakas can eat or not eat any damned thing they want (except for human flesh) smile Charvakas are free spirited people who are rationalists, atheists and hedonists. However, their pursuit of pleasure should not come at the expense of others.

I suppose their overriding hedonism means that 'duty' (for example duty to society) takes a back seat or not seat at all in their lives. Why after all should the Charvakas feel that they have a duty to anyone else but themselves in terms of the pleasure they seek?
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#19
Dr. Kamath's Charvaka Manifesto is an interesting read mainly because it has hilarious internal contradictions. For example, it talks of "Fundamental Beliefs" of Charvakas, but goes on to add that they ...
Quote:do not recognize any knowledge, which is not based on sensory perception and physical verification. It rejects knowledge gained from inference, intuition and testimony.
How can they have beliefs? Beliefs are based on neither sensory perception nor physical verification.

(Answer: Beliefs are not knowledge!)
Of course, it is but a first draft.


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#20
(18-Sep-2010, 01:15 AM)emkay Wrote: Dr. Kamath's Charvaka Manifesto is an interesting read mainly because it has hilarious internal contradictions. For example, it talks of "Fundamental Beliefs" of Charvakas, but goes on to add that they ...
Quote:do not recognize any knowledge, which is not based on sensory perception and physical verification. It rejects knowledge gained from inference, intuition and testimony.
How can they have beliefs? Beliefs are based on neither sensory perception nor physical verification.

(Answer: Beliefs are not knowledge!)
Of course, it is but a first draft.

Emkay In case you did not know - we all have beliefs but they must be based on EVIDENCE. So you are talking crap and are here to just to flame threads.

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#21
(18-Sep-2010, 01:07 AM)Shantanu Wrote: I suppose their overriding hedonism means that 'duty' (for example duty to society) takes a back seat or not seat at all in their lives. Why after all should the Charvakas feel that they have a duty to anyone else but themselves in terms of the pleasure they seek?

Altruism has an evolutionary basis. A Charvaka's sense of concern for others can come from that. Another way of seeing it is, for me to be happy people around me should be happy. What good would it do to me to see depressed people around me? I also cannot live alone. I need to stock favors from others so that I can use them when I am in need. So I have a selfish interest in seeing that others are happy too.
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#22
(18-Sep-2010, 12:30 PM)Lije Wrote:
(18-Sep-2010, 01:07 AM)Shantanu Wrote: I suppose their overriding hedonism means that 'duty' (for example duty to society) takes a back seat or not seat at all in their lives. Why after all should the Charvakas feel that they have a duty to anyone else but themselves in terms of the pleasure they seek?

Altruism has an evolutionary basis. A Charvaka's sense of concern for others can come from that. Another way of seeing it is, for me to be happy people around me should be happy. What good would it do to me to see depressed people around me? I also cannot live alone. I need to stock favors from others so that I can use them when I am in need. So I have a selfish interest in seeing that others are happy too.

So one's sense of duty to strengthen and nurture society emanates from ones altruism that has an evolutionary basis. Charvakas believe in that sense of duty but it is not as strong a feature of their make up as the sense of seeking pleasure from life. Please correct me if I have not understood it right.
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#23
(18-Sep-2010, 07:17 PM)Shantanu Wrote: So one's sense of duty to strengthen and nurture society emanates from ones altruism that has an evolutionary basis. Charvakas believe in that sense of duty but it is not as strong a feature of their make up as the sense of seeking pleasure from life. Please correct me if I have not understood it right.

No. You got it wrong. One can have a pleasure seeking life whilst also having a sense of duty. Both are not mutually exclusive.

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#24
(18-Sep-2010, 09:47 PM)Lije Wrote:
(18-Sep-2010, 07:17 PM)Shantanu Wrote: So one's sense of duty to strengthen and nurture society emanates from ones altruism that has an evolutionary basis. Charvakas believe in that sense of duty but it is not as strong a feature of their make up as the sense of seeking pleasure from life. Please correct me if I have not understood it right.

No. You got it wrong. One can have a pleasure seeking life whilst also having a sense of duty. Both are not mutually exclusive.

I think the sense of duty should be the paramount consideration, and one should sacrifice pleasure when the two come into conflict.
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