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Neuro State: The God Experience
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Captain Mandrake Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Neuro State: The God Experience

MeltedFlame,

I just want to add another thing. I do not deny that you could have had the experiences that you describe in the quotes below.

Quote:When I knew I targeted this area, I felt the change, felt the presence and was sure I was in the company of something(it was like my thoughts were being read by quite a few people), I didn't want to waste their time and went into a mild panic because I hadn't had anything prepared to ask/tell them; in my head I said "now I am here I don't know what to ask you" and then I found the question of "have I done enough?" and instantly a thought came into my head reassuring me(specifically it said: you have done all you can do), I said thank you, and then flames appeared(just like the girls in the tv programme) and It had ended.

Quote:After the experience and me exchange words in thoughts, after I was reassured, and after the slowly shimming flames disappeared - I had an over whelming outburst of happy and then sad emotion. I virtually smiled from eye to eye, then felt myself on the verge of laughter, and then a wave of overwhelming happiness resulting in sadness hit me and I almost burst out into tears, but held them back. It wasn't sad like somebody had just died or been in an accident, it was more sad because somebody had just given you their last breath so you could have your lungs healed from it; you know they have just done a great deed for you and you are eternally greatful. also quite sad.

However, IMO the experiences that include inexplicable bouts of happiness and sadness, seeing flames and hearing voices of people who are not there falls under the category of hallucination. But I am perfectly fine if you do not want to describe these experiences by the term hallucination. After all what is in a word when both of us understand what we are talking about.

My skepticism is around the claim that you targeted the temporal lobe of the brain by meditation. How this targeting was accomplished is still not clear to me.
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MeltedFlame Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Neuro State: The God Experience

(04-03-2013 02:22 AM)Captain Mandrake Wrote:  MeltedFlame,

I just want to add another thing. I do not deny that you could have had the experiences that you describe in the quotes below.

Quote:When I knew I targeted this area, I felt the change, felt the presence and was sure I was in the company of something(it was like my thoughts were being read by quite a few people), I didn't want to waste their time and went into a mild panic because I hadn't had anything prepared to ask/tell them; in my head I said "now I am here I don't know what to ask you" and then I found the question of "have I done enough?" and instantly a thought came into my head reassuring me(specifically it said: you have done all you can do), I said thank you, and then flames appeared(just like the girls in the tv programme) and It had ended.

Quote:After the experience and me exchange words in thoughts, after I was reassured, and after the slowly shimming flames disappeared - I had an over whelming outburst of happy and then sad emotion. I virtually smiled from eye to eye, then felt myself on the verge of laughter, and then a wave of overwhelming happiness resulting in sadness hit me and I almost burst out into tears, but held them back. It wasn't sad like somebody had just died or been in an accident, it was more sad because somebody had just given you their last breath so you could have your lungs healed from it; you know they have just done a great deed for you and you are eternally greatful. also quite sad.

However, IMO the experiences that include inexplicable bouts of happiness and sadness, seeing flames and hearing voices of people who are not there falls under the category of hallucination. But I am perfectly fine if you do not want to describe these experiences by the term hallucination. After all what is in a word when both of us understand what we are talking about.

My skepticism is around the claim that you targeted the temporal lobe of the brain by meditation. How this targeting was accomplished is still not clear to me.

ok, thank you for this message. It has given me some inspiration to reply to you further.

Quote:But I am perfectly fine if you do not want to describe these experiences by the term hallucination. After all what is in a word when both of us understand what we are talking about.

That's reasonable of you - Still, I would like to point out that it wasn't a voice I heard, it was more of an injected thought. A thought that wasnt my own but it had all the same attributes as my own.

But, Captain. I only claim I targeted the temporal lobe because of my experience details compared to the girls experience, who of which had actually had a device on her claiming it was targeting that area.

Also, like I have said previous; I believe(so far) that it had taken me years of questioning god/suffering/lies/etc that lead me upto the god experience. Meditation was just a catalyst for a long awaited event.
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Captain Mandrake Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Neuro State: The God Experience

MeltedFlame,

Did you check out the link from Arvind's post about sensory deprivation.

http://m.phys.org/_news175504269.html

I quote parts of it below.

Quote:
One of the researchers, psychologist Oliver Mason, said the results of the experiment support the idea that hallucinations are produced through what the scientists call faulty source monitoring: the brain misidentifies the source of its own thoughts as arising from outside the body.

Could this explain the voice or injected thought in your experience?
(This post was last modified: 04-03-2013 08:42 PM by Captain Mandrake.)
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MeltedFlame Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Neuro State: The God Experience

(04-03-2013 07:46 PM)Captain Mandrake Wrote:  MeltedFlame,

Did you check out the link from Arvind's post about sensory deprivation.

http://m.phys.org/_news175504269.html

I quote parts of it below.

Quote:
One of the researchers, psychologist Oliver Mason, said the results of the experiment support the idea that hallucinations are produced through what the scientists call faulty source monitoring: the brain misidentifies the source of its own thoughts as arising from outside the body.

Could this explain the voice or injected thought in your experience?

Yes and no - mainly no, because it lacks detail. Also,

"the brain mis-identifies the source of its own thoughts as arising from outside the body."

this is true if you think about me saying "It was as if an injected thought" but what they don't say is; before this injected thought, I felt amongst a presence; I felt like I was moved into a presence .once there my thoughts were being read(they were rising), not that they were arising from outside the body - only one thought arisen from outside the body.

although some detail from this can be taken accurate to the detail in that article of sensory deprivation, it is not including specifics, giving the whole discussion a greater volume to be labelled as such.

....Yes, because it's clear hallucinations are happening during sensory deprivation.

I guess the answer depends on how you want to look at the information you are being given.
(This post was last modified: 04-03-2013 11:50 PM by MeltedFlame.)
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arvindiyer Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Neuro State: The God Experience

(04-03-2013 11:45 PM)MeltedFlame Wrote:  I'm not debating the logicality or semantics of it any more - believe whatever you want, I was only trying to help you experience what I did.

(04-03-2013 11:45 PM)MeltedFlame Wrote:  I would suggest to them: meditate in the sun untill they see something they can relate with. wait days, while reminding yourself of what you saw untill you to know what you saw, why you saw it and what you have to do next. Then meditate in a dark room and it will come into question or experience and be repaired/cleansed/forgiven/reassured.

That gratuitous offer for help, however seems not what members here intent upon promoting science, freethought and secular humanism are obliged to respond to with any kind of enthusiasm. To return the favor, here's a suggestion, caveated by the fact that next to nothing is known about most posters here, not even ASL. Some broad categories of persons who engage in mystical practices are (i) picnickers (people driven by sheer curiosity who undertake these practices preserving 'outsider' or 'visitor' status, for whom such interest will mostly be a passing fad) (ii) pilgrims (people, typically led to a practice by upbringing, tradition or conversion, who see a given practice as their calling which they will fulfil at the expense of other priorities) (iii) patients (people seeking dubious remedies for undiagnosed and unacknowledged mental conditions, or any assistance they can find to cope with life-situations either out of desperation or ignorance). Whichever category one is in, some caution is advised, and lots of background checks and homework. Picnickers must be made aware of risks (like the US government travel advisory about the late Satya Sai Baba) and of how seemingly short trips can leave lingering behavioral residues. Pilgrims need exposure to cultural and religious diversity lest their literalist interpretation of 'chosen-ness' results in insularity and supremacism. Patients and in general, persons in 'at-risk' populations need first to exhaust EBSM options and other mainstream options such as those listed in Active Minds of Metanoia before resorting to mysticism. We don't know which one is your story, MeltedFlame, but in response to your offer for help, here is an earnest exhortation to step back and ask yourself what is the problem or question which 'meditation' apparently solves for you and what are some mainstream recommendations for addressing that problem, and then exhaust the simplest options before buying in to magic and attempting to sell it to freethinkers here.

(04-03-2013 11:45 PM)MeltedFlame Wrote:  although some detail from this can be taken accurate to the detail in that article of sensory deprivation, it is not including specifics, giving the whole discussion a greater volume to be labelled as such.

....Yes, because it's clear hallucinations are happening during sensory deprivation.

I guess the answer depends on how you want to look at the information you are being given.

The claim of chosen-ness and exceptionalism, made by special pleading is a common trait for all mysticism enthusiasts. Some examples are claims like: "Our spiritual Master is incorruptible, though it's clear others have strayed" and "My experience was real, though reports by many others are fake or honestly mistaken." which are made without specifying what safeguards were put in place to ensure that the said master or experience is immune to all-too-common human follies. If the response is a radically solipsist and subjective line that 'Each experience is real to its experiencer', then such a stance which escapes reductionism and repeatability, thus not satisfying parsimony and testability, does not belong in a forum emphasizing Science.
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MeltedFlame Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Neuro State: The God Experience

(05-03-2013 12:32 AM)arvindiyer Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 11:45 PM)MeltedFlame Wrote:  I'm not debating the logicality or semantics of it any more - believe whatever you want, I was only trying to help you experience what I did.

(04-03-2013 11:45 PM)MeltedFlame Wrote:  I would suggest to them: meditate in the sun untill they see something they can relate with. wait days, while reminding yourself of what you saw untill you to know what you saw, why you saw it and what you have to do next. Then meditate in a dark room and it will come into question or experience and be repaired/cleansed/forgiven/reassured.

That gratuitous offer for help, however seems not what members here intent upon promoting science, freethought and secular humanism are obliged to respond to with any kind of enthusiasm. To return the favor, here's a suggestion, caveated by the fact that next to nothing is known about most posters here, not even ASL. Some broad categories of persons who engage in mystical practices are (i) picnickers (people driven by sheer curiosity who undertake these practices preserving 'outsider' or 'visitor' status, for whom such interest will mostly be a passing fad) (ii) pilgrims (people, typically led to a practice by upbringing, tradition or conversion, who see a given practice as their calling which they will fulfil at the expense of other priorities) (iii) patients (people seeking dubious remedies for undiagnosed and unacknowledged mental conditions, or any assistance they can find to cope with life-situations either out of desperation or ignorance). Whichever category one is in, some caution is advised, and lots of background checks and homework. Picnickers must be made aware of risks (like the US government travel advisory about the late Satya Sai Baba) and of how seemingly short trips can leave lingering behavioral residues. Pilgrims need exposure to cultural and religious diversity lest their literalist interpretation of 'chosen-ness' results in insularity and supremacism. Patients and in general, persons in 'at-risk' populations need first to exhaust EBSM options and other mainstream options such as those listed in Active Minds of Metanoia before resorting to mysticism. We don't know which one is your story, MeltedFlame, but in response to your offer for help, here is an earnest exhortation to step back and ask yourself what is the problem or question which 'meditation' apparently solves for you and what are some mainstream recommendations for addressing that problem, and then exhaust the simplest options before buying in to magic and attempting to sell it to freethinkers here.

(04-03-2013 11:45 PM)MeltedFlame Wrote:  although some detail from this can be taken accurate to the detail in that article of sensory deprivation, it is not including specifics, giving the whole discussion a greater volume to be labelled as such.

....Yes, because it's clear hallucinations are happening during sensory deprivation.

I guess the answer depends on how you want to look at the information you are being given.

The claim of chosen-ness and exceptionalism, made by special pleading is a common trait for all mysticism enthusiasts. Some examples are claims like: "Our spiritual Master is incorruptible, though it's clear others have strayed" and "My experience was real, though reports by many others are fake or honestly mistaken." which are made without specifying what safeguards were put in place to ensure that the said master or experience is immune to all-too-common human follies. If the response is a radically solipsist and subjective line that 'Each experience is real to its experiencer', then such a stance which escapes reductionism and repeatability, thus not satisfying parsimony and testability, does not belong in a forum emphasizing Science.


I was given the impression that a threat named "the god experience" would hold people who wish to experience it. Captain Mandrake shown interest and asked a question, the second quote is my reply to that question. It wasn't an offer of help. It was an answer.

Selling it to free-thinkers? I don't need to sell the idea to anybody, it was real to me, I am just conversing it to somebody who is showing an interest. Thanks for the advice though, I probably should :-). although now that I have had the experience, stuff is a lot better and I don't worry about things like I used to. Not in the slightest.

Then you go on to say I believe I am chosen or exceptional? I believe I am very far from it. So, maybe you have just read my posts in the way you wanted to read them. I haven't read those links you posted yet, but, I will get round to it. It was just a very significant thing for me to go through, and I thought I would talk about it here. In the thread named "the god experience".

It's obvious you are very clever and what you say could be true; whatever category I end up being in, at the end of the day it shouldn't be so easy to close the lid and not have to hear my voice.
(This post was last modified: 05-03-2013 01:30 AM by MeltedFlame.)
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arvindiyer Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Neuro State: The God Experience

(05-03-2013 12:54 AM)MeltedFlame Wrote:  I was given the impression that a threat named "the god experience" would hold people who wish to experience it.

Members here are interested in claims of 'divine revelation' and the 'god experience' for similar reasons why law enforcement personnel are interested in crime and healthcare professionals are interested in disease: for critical examination and responder preparedness. That it will be hard to find persons here who are interested in locking themselves in, turning off the lights and ending up 'talking to their temporal lobes'; can be reasonably guessed from the banner of this forum.

(05-03-2013 12:54 AM)MeltedFlame Wrote:  Then you go on to say I believe I am chosen or exceptional? I believe I am very far from it.

One may grant that there was no explicit claim of revelation on your part, but a claim of having 'targeted the temporal lobe' is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence which quite understandably strains credulity in a community which expects peer review rather than televangelist or reality-TV testimonies. Unless any extraordinary evidence lending itself to peer review is forthcoming, you are welcome to savour the benefits of silence in silence and excuse yourself from the clamour of those who seek to base their conclusions on corroborated evidence.
(This post was last modified: 05-03-2013 01:27 AM by arvindiyer.)
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MeltedFlame Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Neuro State: The God Experience

(05-03-2013 01:27 AM)arvindiyer Wrote:  
(05-03-2013 12:54 AM)MeltedFlame Wrote:  I was given the impression that a threat named "the god experience" would hold people who wish to experience it.

Members here are interested in claims of 'divine revelation' and the 'god experience' for similar reasons why law enforcement personnel are interested in crime and healthcare professionals are interested in disease: for critical examination and responder preparedness. That it will be hard to find persons here who are interested in locking themselves in, turning off the lights and ending up 'talking to their temporal lobes'; can be reasonably guessed from the banner of this forum.

(05-03-2013 12:54 AM)MeltedFlame Wrote:  Then you go on to say I believe I am chosen or exceptional? I believe I am very far from it.

One may grant that there was no explicit claim of revelation on your part, but a claim of having 'targeted the temporal lobe' is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence which quite understandably strains credulity in a community which expects peer review rather than televangelist or reality-TV testimonies. Unless any extraordinary evidence lending itself to peer review is forthcoming, you are welcome to savour the benefits of silence in silence and excuse yourself from the clamour of those who seek to base their conclusions on corroborated evidence.

Thank you.
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Captain Mandrake Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Neuro State: The God Experience

MeltedFlame,

I believe Arvind has said all that needs to be said. I do not have anything to add but I would like to emphasize what I think is very important from one of his posts.

Quote:step back and ask yourself what is the problem or question which 'meditation' apparently solves for you and what are some mainstream recommendations for addressing that problem, and then exhaust the simplest options before buying in to magic
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Post: #34
RE: Neuro State: The God Experience

(05-03-2013 05:03 AM)Captain Mandrake Wrote:  MeltedFlame,

I believe Arvind has said all that needs to be said. I do not have anything to add but I would like to emphasize what I think is very important from one of his posts.

Quote:step back and ask yourself what is the problem or question which 'meditation' apparently solves for you and what are some mainstream recommendations for addressing that problem, and then exhaust the simplest options before buying in to magic

Thank you. I enjoyed talking about it and appreciate the advice.
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