Despite of many anti-human trafficking organizations, we still find human trafficking and child abuse all the time..
I personally think, it would be better to legalize prostitution like any other industry Ex:(Liquor, Tobacco)
Once its get legalized it will easy to regulate,
1) Teaching Safe sex to sex workers ensures
2) Age restriction can be applied.
3) It will be easy for sex workers to get out of system.
4) Sex violence can be reduced.
5) Free will of sex worker
One can think many points supporting this view, I have found some articles supporting. I would like to know what ur views
Ya I agree and mostly for the last point. This is something I've been thinking about. Most of the taboo associated with prostitution comes from the fact that its considered degradable for a person to be a sex worker. I on the other hand dont feel that way. Of course there are tons of problems associated with it like the ones you mentioned, but if we can segregate them out, and if the person really likes sex(duh!) and would like to make it as his / her (yes the guy shud be able to as well!!!), career, then I dont see what is wrong there.
I would love to hear more opinions.
(02-Oct-2010, 10:06 AM)mohankarthik Wrote: Ya I agree and mostly for the last point. This is something I've been thinking about. Most of the taboo associated with prostitution comes from the fact that its considered degradable for a person to be a sex worker. I on the other hand dont feel that way. Of course there are tons of problems associated with it like the ones you mentioned, but if we can segregate them out, and if the person really likes sex(duh!) and would like to make it as his / her (yes the guy shud be able to as well!!!), career, then I dont see what is wrong there.
I would love to hear more opinions.
I would also agree to this. If prostitution is legalised, it would prevent the stigmata associated with a prostitute. It will allow them to live normally without the fear of social seclusion. Prostitution should be treated like any other career. If a person chooses this line of work, that’s their choice. Why should anyone be allowed to ridicule or belittle them?
On a related note, there need to be laws to prevent people being forced into this profession too.
(03-Oct-2010, 12:23 AM)Ron2005 Wrote: On a related note, there need to be laws to prevent people being forced into this profession too.
Like i said before, when you make it as career, it will be easily possible.. Even a person wants to get out of system, Govt or any other non-profit originations can provide counseling.. and before giving license every sex worker they can be questioned is this by their free will or not. Even Sex workers can get pail well, without involvement of lobbying people
(01-Oct-2010, 06:54 PM)ayyawar Wrote: I personally think, it would be better to legalize prostitution like any other industry Ex:(Liquor, Tobacco).
but its not like any other industry. its different because of the amount of stress and trauma it causes/can cause on a large number of victims.
At a 2-individuals level, the theory of consensual-sex-for-money seems quite fine, and I am for it. But even in the countries where its been legalized for a while now, the industrialization of it has apparently not reached its goal of fairness-to-women. From Wikipedia:
Quote:21st century: reducing the size of the red light district
When the Dutch government legalized prostitution in 2000, it was to protect the women by giving them work permits, but authorities now fear that this business is out of control: "We’ve realized this is no longer about small-scale entrepreneurs, but that big crime organizations are involved here in trafficking women, drugs, killings and other criminal activities", said Job Cohen, the former mayor of Amsterdam. Recently, officials have noticed an increase in violence centered on this irregular industry, and have blamed this increase on the illegal immigration of individuals into Amsterdam to participate in the sex industry: "The guys from Eastern Europe bring in young and frightened women; they threaten them and beat them", said a resident of De Wallen. Prostitution has remained connected to criminal activities, which has led the authorities to take several measures, including detailed plans to help the prostitutes quit the sex trade and find other professions.
Quote:Once its get legalized it will easy to regulate.
In your dreams
India is nowhere near ready for this experiment.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has - Margaret Mead
@astro: ya. even though i've had ideas about this, I knw it'll be crazy hard to implement in India. :(.
But I wanted to know if people hypothetically thought if sex for money was a bad thing. And so far i'm hearing things that I agree
(03-Oct-2010, 08:37 PM)mohankarthik Wrote: But I wanted to know if people hypothetically thought if sex for money was a bad thing. And so far i'm hearing things that I agree
Well.. I would still say it's (organized prostitution) a 'bad thing', in the sense that I cant see why a woman would even want to make it a "job of choice", given the dehumanization involved in the process. We are resorting to this as our last choice, because our societal norms have pushed the people involved into a corner.
Quote:9. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not enhance women's choice.
Most women in prostitution did not make a rational choice to enter prostitution. They did not sit down one day and decide that they wanted to be prostitutes. Rather, such choices are better termed survival strategies. Rather than consent, a prostituted woman more accurately complies to the only options available to her. Her compliance is required by the very fact of having to adapt to conditions of inequality that are set by the customer who pays her to do what he wants her to do.
I have thought about this a good deal too.. but I cant think of any way to keep all the parties involved safe and happy.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has - Margaret Mead
04-Oct-2010, 08:03 AM
(This post was last modified: 04-Oct-2010, 08:20 AM by Ajita Kamal.)
Prostitution must first be viewed as one type of human sexual behavior, before the moral premises can become clear. Most people simply view it as financial exploitation or physical abuse (both of which it often is), and miss the nuance in the idea that prostitution is simply the social categorization of one type of sexual behavior that is based on the financial system that humans have built to provide us with goods and services. Before jumping to conclusions about what I'm saying, please read the rest.
Just as with all human endeavors, different people feel differently about the notion of sex for money (or money for sex, depending). Some people feel it's no different from anything else that people do for sex. Many other species also have multiple strategies for sex that males and females choose from, depending on their circumstances. Since sex is what determines the course of our biological evolution, all human actions can be viewed through the lens of sex, even if some of the actions are unrelated to the sexual drive itself. One could argue that in certain cultures marriage in some ways can be viewed as (partly being) a financial agreement for having sex.
People have been using sex as a device to get things done for a long long time. Except for a small percentage of no-strings-attached cases, sex involves some form of "payment" or the other- money, time, work, food, protection, etc. Both partners contribute to this arrangement. This "payment" may be completely voluntary, and is often pleasurable to the giver as well and may indeed be more central to the relationship than sex itself, but from a biological point of view it is some sort of payment nevertheless.
Now for the moral premises.
What I have presented above cannot tell us if prostitution is god or bad. What it does tell us is that we need to be careful in determining our moral premises in such cases where society forces us to make clear judgments based on arbitrary notions. I think that the subject of money for sex is a distraction, and should not be used in determining the moral premises involved in prostitution. As some others have argued here, choice (not free-will) is a better moral arbiter.
This complicates things a whole lot, because as we all know, choice is determined by many many factors, some not so much under our control. But this is the challenge.
Prostitution is of many types, can occur in many different settings depending on the culture and the level of affluence of the individuals involved. Contrary to what some have suggested, some women actively and happily choose the lifestyle because: 1. They enjoy sex, 2. They enjoy the feeling of control that they have over their clients (I know this is controversial because most prostitutes actually lack any power or control over their clients, and are thus ripe for abuse, but there are many cases where the clients are completely at the mercy of the prostitutes, and the prostitutes completely get off on it. In fact, this can be such a turn on for some that they cite it as the main reason why they do it. Last year one New York magazine carried an article on high-end call girls, many of whom said they loved the power they hold over their wall-street and political-candidate clients) 3. They make way more money at it doing way little work. 4. Often it is not sex-work, but emotion-work, since there are many lonely men who do not have any means of talking to women except when they pay for one to listen to them and comfort them. This is very rare among street prostitutes, who often will not get involved emotionally in any way, but such emotional comforting of clients is a lot more common among high-end call-girls.
These things may seem surprising, and we may tend to dismiss them as simply not knowing how fucked up they are in their heads, but we would be lying to ourselves if we did not acknowledge that there are women who would rather be a prostitute than a doctor. If you doubt me, all you need to do is to read about the lifestyles that some of these high-end call-girls in New York and Vegas lead.
But this is a tiny minority of prostitutes. Around the world the prostitution industry is probably the single largest source of crimes against humanity, on par with the illegal drug industry. There are social causes that force many poor women into prostitution, in dangerous, unhealthy and often extremely abusive conditions. Most street prostitutes are controlled by violent men who use these women to become rich. Many of these women end up abusing hardcore drugs like heroin and crystal meth, and they often have STDs. In some parts of the world prostitution is fed by kidnapped young girls, often smuggled across borders. A couple of years ago I watched a documentary on young Russian and Eastern European girls who are kidnapped and shipped to Turkey, to be raped multiple times and trained to become captive sex-workers. Thailand is famous for sex workers, many of whom are extremely young. In many high-prostitution areas, the children of prostitutes have nothing else to guide their lives and the little girls may end up also becoming prostitutes. In all these cases, there are too many powerful factors that push these women into prostitution.
So regulation of prostitution will have to be done on a case by case basis, by referring to specific crimes against humanity rather than focusing on the act of paying for sex (or having sex for money). Government should not be banning all prostitution, just as it should not be banning all drugs. The idea that paying for sex should be made illegal is like taking a meat-cleaver to a dinner table. You may or may not solve some problems, but you will certainly create others. Legalizing a certain product or service is often an essential step in regulating the industry. There are many who argue that if prostitution is legalized, we can ensure better safety and protection for the women who choose to take it up as a profession. There may be negative impact on society as well, but at least we will be having this conversation on a more meaningful point, and the individual concerns can be addressed.
I recently watched an excellent documentary on NGC, on this subject. I highly recommend it. Did any of you know that for disabled people in the Netherlands, the Dutch government pays for 12 sexual sessions per year with a registered sex-worker?
"Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian"
~ J.B.S.Haldane, on being asked to falsify evolution.
Brilliant documentary! But sadly I couldnt find the 4th part in youtube anywhere.
But regardless I understood one point. That there is no generic solution and the solution has to be done on a case by case basis.
And the cases basically are, high end prostitution where the workers come on their own interest and like to be doing the job. And on the other end we've street prostitutes who have been shunned / manipulated into the job.
So how do we address the two extremes? I dont agree with the prof near the end of the video, who says that legalization of prostitution will equate to legalization of violence against women! But making prostitution a criminal offence, you are doing nothing to help the girls anyway. By making a solid law for prostitution we can legalize prostitution while criminalizing the offences against them (this is especially true in the street prostitute case). But am I day dreaming here?
Ok! I've a whacky idea! What if the government organizes brothels? Basically, send out a call to all the sex workers, and tell them that the government is holding a brothel. And take care of all the sex workers there. Anyone who dosent have a government license and works outside the government sponsored brothel can be subject to the law. I knw that this is ripe for abuse (but just for a moment assume that the govt isnt corrupt and we can trust the people in charge). Will this work? And this means that sex workers can also have a way out of the industry.
And about the taboo part. It is this aspect that I was thinking about more. The fact that it is considered degrading for a person to sell sex. It might lead to violence / abuse and drugs. But a person should not be considered immoral / "tainted" for thinking about trading sex for money. I read a news article sometime back where a girl sold her virginity so the guy could pay for her college. I thought that was a terrific deal for the girl. She dosent really care about her "virginity", a concept tat evades me, and she got to get a good education. I was very happy for her.
(06-Oct-2010, 10:10 PM)mohankarthik Wrote: So how do we address the two extremes? I dont agree with the prof near the end of the video, who says that legalization of prostitution will equate to legalization of violence against women! But making prostitution a criminal offence, you are doing nothing to help the girls anyway. By making a solid law for prostitution we can legalize prostitution while criminalizing the offences against them (this is especially true in the street prostitute case). But am I day dreaming here?
Yeah, I think though it seems to work in theory, in practice, I am pessimistic. Considering the kind of record that India has in enforcing many important laws, it is probably going to be left to NGOs to give sex workers healthcare and combating AIDS. Also, let's not forget the conservative mindset that mainstream Indian society has - a sex worker is not going to be able to quit easily without a complete identity change (even then, there will be prying questions about her husband, etc).
There will always be a market for underpaid or "cheap" prostitutes, simply because the main clientèle in India are the lorry drivers and others in hard labour jobs. (I remember seeing a tamil TV a really long while back, where a lorry driver explained how he has to work really hours, is paid very little (3K rupees or so), and how he simply cannot maintain a family. He pretty much asserted that he needs the relaxation that can be got from visiting a prostitute.) It is pretty natural that these men can be quite frustrated and violent. The underpaid prostitutes are the kind who probably cannot leave the job, mainly because they are not educated enough to take up something else, or because of the society around her that will not accept her. These are also the women who get treated inhumanly. If prostitution is to be legalised, firstly the women should have a choice to leave the occupation. I think this condition won't be satisfied, especially in India - society is still very immature.
Quote:I read a news article sometime back where a girl sold her virginity so the guy could pay for her college. I thought that was a terrific deal for the girl. She dosent really care about her "virginity", a concept tat evades me, and she got to get a good education. I was very happy for her.
I don't think it is even illegal
in India for this sort of thing, especially if it is not in public (ok, I realise that it was in the paper, but I am saying generally). The laws are against soliciting clients in public, sexual activity in proximity to a public place, and organised trafficking and prostitution.
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(06-Oct-2010, 10:10 PM)mohankarthik Wrote: And about the taboo part. It is this aspect that I was thinking about more. The fact that it is considered degrading for a person to sell sex. It might lead to violence / abuse and drugs. But a person should not be considered immoral / "tainted" for thinking about trading sex for money. I read a news article sometime back where a girl sold her virginity so the guy could pay for her college. I thought that was a terrific deal for the girl. She dosent really care about her "virginity", a concept tat evades me, and she got to get a good education. I was very happy for her.
I think, here we are complicating this issue with more than one problem...
Another reason for Taboo is, Sex is very closely related to love, A conservative will start thinking, what if we are selling love on street.. Which is totally pointless thinking..
[b]New York magazine carried an article on high-end call girls,[\b] This problem is little bit different from prostitution, the client should be blamed for not doing his job properly, not the sex girls, If we allow our weakens, some one will defiantly try to control us in some way.
In that video, they trucks has to stay 1-2 days to cross the bridge, thats a logistics problem. when you make a guy to stay at a place for 2 days without giving enough facilities, he'll more venerable to commit sexual act.
I totally agree that truck drivers are paid less, around 3000rs which far less than minimum payment required by govt,
And one thing, Girl sold her virginity in order to pay her tuition fee, Personally i wouldn't feel happy about that, its very very sad that a women has to do that, in order to pay her tuition fee. Its a different case, if she could get money other than having sex.
coming back to point, Prostitution should be legalized and sex worker should be given permission only grounds on personal interest, they should not be forced by another person, and other circumstances.. And other problem which are leading prostitution should be considered as different problem, and we should fight for it.
I freaking love Europe for it's human rights and I do think legalizing prostitution will help many of the problems sex workers face. But it will only really work when coupled with a system that provides health care, education and a way to own their business.
In Bangladesh, where prostitution is legal, the common problems of underage girls, AIDS and human trafficking still exist. So legalization is not enough.
If organisations like http://www.aim-med.org/
were in India, I think a lot of stigma and misconceptions about medical aid among sex workers themselves would decrease. They could be educated about safe sex and myths like washing with dettol prevents AIDS and such.
I also think that legalization coupled with education could help women and men get out of the industry if they wish to. Being tied to pimps and brothels make it hard. But if they were autonomous then it would be easier to get out.