Quantum mechanics, Reality, Vedanta and the nature of 'scientific method'
#37
I am bit confused about 'scientific method' which needs to be followed in order to prove the claim of some religions say 'Vedanta'. Isn't this you are saying, in the post #1 ?

Apart from that :
"As for the answers to your previous questions, I request you to re read the 4th para which reads like "Since all this is subjective reality or Maya there is no rule which governs or explains their origin or accounts for them suitably like in modern science. It is simply Mithya (like the snake appearing in the rope). Just as in modern science there are newtons laws, maxwells equations etc so are these in the Dvaita World. Just as science is prone to corrections so are the concepts is this Mayic world of birth and rebirth.""
How do you come to this conclusion, that is what I am trying to ask you? Means, there must be something, that you have understood, and we don't, that you know this all is nothing but the mithya. Please explain.
Indians today are governed by two different ideologies. Their political ideal set in the preamble of the Constitution affirms a life of liberty, equality and fraternity. Their social ideal embodied in their religion denies them. - Ambedkar
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#38
This is going to be a brief, and final, reiteration of the repeatedly issued clarifications from my end.

(30-Dec-2011, 02:15 PM)ramesh Wrote: Whether science gets answers to all above like questions are not I believe that one day science would be in a position to create a ‘Human being’ in the laboratory from basic elements of the periodic table! At this stage what goal is science going to allot him to perform in his life?

We are all constituted of elements of the periodic table, cooked in stellar furnaces. No externally pre-ordained goal can be enforced on a human being, whatever their origin, in a humanistic worldview which acknowledges their right to seek their own purpose themselves.

(30-Dec-2011, 02:15 PM)ramesh Wrote: The different answers will simply confirm that you have the RIGHT KNOWLEDGE which ALONE is sought for. And even though without the use of the equation you answer them rightly it would be just the chance and will never be duplicated nor will be appreciated.

There is an assumption here that there is indeed a Theory of Everything, knowing which everything becomes known. This is an assumption in most religions, including contemporary Hinduism. However, as Richard Feynman explains in this video, there is nothing yet to convince us that there is indeed such a Theory of Everything!

(30-Dec-2011, 02:15 PM)ramesh Wrote: Yes Vedanta (I never talk on behalf of God of Christen, Islam or others and regretfully most of you peoples references Y Tube etc belong to their version) has answered all these quite effectively. And has never contradicted the science.

(30-Dec-2011, 02:15 PM)ramesh Wrote: What notion Christens or Islamic people have about all these things I am not aware of and neither interested at present. I do not talk either on behalf of so called Vedantis or Hindus who are just believers as well.

(30-Dec-2011, 02:15 PM)ramesh Wrote: In short Vedic consciousness is that which supports the ‘brain’ and not the ‘consciousness’ which is as an effect of the brain (such a Vedic consciousness would be expressed once the answers to questions which I have posed in the earlier comment are made known by the modern science).

The short answer to this repeated falsehood of Vedantic exclusivity and scientific credentials is as follows:

Vedanta, with its concept of the Atman, does very centrally feature the assumption of Cartesian Dualism as emphatically as Islam or Christianity do and such dualism is incompatible with contemporary science.

(30-Dec-2011, 02:15 PM)ramesh Wrote: Vedanta claims to have known everything and that science never.

That is fairly tall claim of Vedanta and quite unsubstantiated. To be scientific in one's approach means to opt for the provisional and testable over the absolutist and unquestionable.

(30-Dec-2011, 02:15 PM)ramesh Wrote: I always talk on behalf of ‘Vedanta’ as put up either by Maharshi Ved Vyasa or Shankaracharya or the true Hinduism as is being represented in Ramayana, Mahabharata, Puranas, Vedas etc.

(30-Dec-2011, 02:15 PM)ramesh Wrote: Therefore, exactly for the CONVENIENE/UTILITY/SOLACE of this man that Vedanta develops and builds up the ‘Dvaita’ world (just as science builds up the technology for convenience and usefulness).

Considering the Ramayana as a case study, what exactly is the 'solace', Mithya or otherwise, that it provides to suffering beings in their Dvaita delusions, especially when the Ramayana itself is cited for authority by those with a sexist (1, 2,3), and supremacist (1, 2) agenda?

(30-Dec-2011, 02:15 PM)ramesh Wrote: Therefore Vedanta appeal all the rest that you be whatever you want (athiest, agnositc islam etc) but criticizer not its products like Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharat, Puranas made for the 'ordinary human who cannot understand the logic of science till the end' etc unless and until you are challenged and if you want to criticize it take it on head and face the questions as is being asked here and there OR you ask and we would answer.

If you claim to be an extra-ordinary human who has apprehended Vedantic truth in a manner ordinary mortals like those here cannot understand, then why, won't you follow the code of conduct which Vedantic masters have followed in such situations over the ages, namely, yielding to silence? This is the third and final time (after 1 and 2) that I am asking this question. This is a simple question, unless the one to whom it is directed is also faking spiritual commitment while simultaneously faking scientific interest.


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#39
It appears that you people are mixing the concepts from Advaita and Dvaita of Hinduism and posing the questions. Advaita is absolute and Dvaita is speculative and hence doesn’t exist at all from Advaita point of view. It is just till the ordinary mortal understand this concept that the Dvaita world has been developed for smooth functioning of the individual and society and no more purpose this Dvaita worlds serves.


@arvindiyer,

Re: If you claim to be an extra-ordinary human who has apprehended Vedantic truth in a manner ordinary mortals like those here cannot understand, then why, won't you follow the code of conduct which Vedantic masters have followed in such situations over the ages, namely, yielding to silence? This is the third and final time (after 1 and 2) that I am asking this question. This is a simple question, unless the one to whom it is directed is also faking spiritual commitment while simultaneously faking scientific interest.

Re: Considering the Ramayana as a case study, what exactly is the 'solace', Mithya or otherwise, that it provides to suffering beings in their Dvaita delusions, especially when the Ramayana itself is cited for authority by those with a sexist (1, 2,3), and supremacist (1, 2) agenda?


Obviously it is true that ordinary mortals cannot apprehend the Vedantic truth as it is. That is why it has been aptly called गुह्य ज्ञान (secret knowledge) even though it is totally open. For this reason there are many restriction placed on the ordinary mortals to read and interpret the Shastras lest they will distort the entire meaning of the Shastras as is being witnessed everywhere in the name of the science. Refer and try to understand my entire comments (http://sabhlokcity.com/2011/11/why-cant-...u-temples/) if you can afford.


Silence! Do you mean keeping mum out of helplessness or otherwise? Rama and Krishna and other legends of Hinduism played their role in epics still they were totally silent from Vedantin point of view. For the ‘Jnani’ there are no prescriptions/restrictions which describe his behaviour. For Vedantin (Brahman) point of view within the subjective universe there is nothing like truth. So silence=activity, misery=bliss, poverty=prosperity……..etc i.e. every duet is meaningless for him and that ultimately only KALYN (welfare) from ordinary point of view is ensured. That is all. There do not exist any other thing. Thing like spirituality, faith, belief etc do not exist for Jnani but for ordinary mortals alone. You appear to mix these two radically apparently contradictory view points of Jnani and ordinary mortals. That is not justified.


Re: Vedanta, with its concept of the Atman, does very centrally feature the assumption of Cartesian Dualism as emphatically as Islam or Christianity do and such dualism is incompatible with contemporary science.


For Vedanta there is no truth except Brahman/Atman. There isn’t any sort of dualism for Vedanta. Mind and brain are the same entity for it. No separate snake and rope it is only rope. i.e. there is no Maya- ma+ ya=the one which doesn’t exist. Thus the Dvaita world is non entity from Vedantin point of view. Still we perceive the universe as it is as truth because of the ignorance. Thus your reference irrelevant. This may not be case with Islam or christen. For them god and universe may be different things (I am not sure of it)

Re: There is an assumption here that there is indeed a Theory of Everything, knowing which everything becomes known. This is an assumption in most religions, including contemporary Hinduism. However, as Richard Feynman explains in this video, there is nothing yet to convince us that there is indeed such a Theory of Everything!


Vedanta claims that such a ‘theory of everything’ is an impossible event. It is the science which is after that. Till it is discovered there would be permanent confirmation bias on the part of the science that ‘scientific method’ is truth and that everything can be proved using science. Thus the

Kanad: And for the umpteenth time, Scientific Method is NOT DEPENDENT on whether you know something or not. You clearly can't grasp this basic concept.

Is totally a confirmation bias. You know well what is held truth gets modified as science advances. Keeping with the same logic one day what the science has assumed about the ‘scientific method’ is also likely to be proved otherwise. Hence what science doesn’t know today may be holding a key to how well science has not understood its means ‘scientific method’ as well. Thus till the science finds ‘theory of everything’ there will be permanent ‘confirmation bias’ on the part of the science.


The following contexts also offer different versions for the same.



@ nispat

Re: Solution for AIDS


Since Vedanta knows everything you are asking for the direct solution. So definitely you are miles away from Vedanta. Since if any alien country wants some information about India they approach either President or PM of the India. Then you forget that it is not the President or PM who knows the exact information. There is some department from which they gather the information and pass on the same to the needy. Here transaction occurs as if the President or PM themselves know the answer. Thus your question deals with the Dvaita world and answer has to come from Dvaita world which you seem not to digest. Here it is Vedanta (Advaita) which governs the Dvaita world by way of knowledge of exact nature of the Dvaita world. From advaitin point of view dvatia world has no existence hence your question becomes irrelevant from Vedantin point of view.


Aids is a disease of body made of mass, space and time. Naturally without understanding these you won’t ever understand the ultimate solution for that. About these Vedas say they are Mithya (Maya) means like snake in a rope. So the visible universe is like snake. Science will understand it to be rope (the ultimate truth) only after discovering the ‘theory of everything’ (that it is impossible is an obvious thing only to Vedantin).


Thus from Vedantin point of view you are asking for the solution to the disease which this snake suffers from. Here Vedanta offers the solution that there doesn’t exist any such a thing like snake and if you fail to grasp this fact then it directs you to approach the universe of that snake (Dvaita world) where you will find Ayurveda, modern science etc. For such a solution you have to follow the rules of the subjective world (Ramayan, Mahabharat, Puranas, Vedas, Ayurveda, other religions and latest being MODERN SCIENCE of which Ayurveda is also part). So I directed you to the science. So far Dvaita rules have been framed by the Advaitin since he alone knows the true nature of the Dvaita world e.g. all Shastras of Hinduism. The claim of science that it is independent of the Advaita doesn’t contradict the Advaita claim that it is part of it for want of knowledge of ‘theory of everything’ by the science. Once the theory of everything is known by the modern science it would be free of the problem of infinite regression and confirmation bias and thus capable enough to survive as independent. Till such a time this Dvaita world (which includes modern science with all branches of its philosophy) is governed by a rule as is stated in the Bhagawat Geeta that ‘परिवर्तनहि सन्सार का नियम है/’ (that is why modern science claims that it open to corrections always still calling the Hinduism to be rigid!). Thus there are many APPARENT contradictions in Hindu Dvaita world. It is just natural that as the experience/experiments go on précising the knowledge would be so accordingly. Even the greatest Vedantin say Vyas or Shankaracharya who are supposed to know everything did suffer from diseases for which no solution was available ONLY FROM SUBJECTIVE WORLD VIEW and never from VEDANTIN POINT OF VIEW. Please do make effort to understand what this means.


In other words you cannot use the real ointment to cure the disease of a snake appearing on the rope which you are doing by asking solution to the Aids from Vedantin who is supposed to know everything. Here the person who subsequently comes to know that it is not the snake but rope claims to know everything about the closed system of ‘snake and rope’ because for him there isn’t any meaning for the snake and its disease and question of disease doesn’t arise at all.


If you won’t grasp what is said in the above and still persist on solution to the Aids then make us understand your question precisely so that it would be answered convincingly.

What is the human body?
What it is made up of?
Why is it a disease? So on…….

In short ultimately you should answer us ‘theory of everything’ which according to Vedanta is TOTAL IMPOSSIBLE because according to it, it is like a snake on the rope. When there is no snake how is that theory will exist which would describe its details of the body and disease?


Thus your question will ultimately be undefined and for this reason burden of answer won’t be passed on to the Vedantin. Here you people accuse the Vedantin of dodging/avoiding/obfuscating etc the questions but safely forget that you are not matching the depth of the answers given to you.


In other words once ‘a thing’ is assumed to be real the problem of ‘infinite regression’ and ‘confirmation bias’ starts. There can’t exist any solutions to these two problems because ‘assuming a thing to be real’ itself is beginning of the problem. This is what the Vedanta/Hinduism states to be ‘secret of the universe’ and still propounds the ‘Dvaita World’ of which Modern science is a part. This can’t be contradiction but lack of depth of understanding. That is why it has been an open secret.


When a statement is made like ‘Vedanta/Brahman/Hinduism etc knows everything’ I also put the following question similar to your one.

1. Why this world was created with suffering, problems?
2. If Ram and Krishna knew everything why did they themselves faced the problems?
3. Why Vedantic do not know what is going on in everybodys mind?
4. Were Hindu Gods sleeping when they were ruined by the Muslim fanatics?
5. Will Brahman/Shiva/Vishnu save the world when it would be hit by some big meteoroids etc? Will they help when one day Sun would be exhausted of its energy?
6. All of your questions asked earlier by you in your post no. 29 may be grouped under this.


{ Why there is need of creation of "subjective reality" or mithya world? --- who said subjective reality or mithya world is created? It doesn’t exist at all. It is our ignorance and infinite culture (sanskar) that makes us to see it. Do not you see snake on the rope? How long that snake existed? Since the time the rope was created would be the answer. See if you could understand! So the answers to the rest questions could be generalised}


My friend, these are the basic questions (along with the questions which I asked earlier solutions to which may form the theory of everything in science) which has been baffling the mankind since the time immemorial. Let it be known that it were these and such questions alone which ‘Sanatan Dharma’/Hinduism alone answers without ambiguity with the concept of Mithya (Maya)


e.g. placebo effect. You know well some diseases are cured well using this method. Is it the external ‘matter’ which ‘actually’ affects the disease here? No. It is just mental set up (matter) within the patient himself. Over! Now we call this method as ‘placebo effect’ only because there are others who conduct this experiment and are aware of the ‘REAL FACT’ but not the one ‘WHO UNDERGOES THE TREATMENT’ can term it as placebo effect. So has been the case with mankind. We can’t get outside this system of universe and term it as ‘placebo effect’. So we are taking pride in scientific advancements. That is why it is impossible to find the theory of everything.


Thus universe is a placebo effect and it is the knowledge alone which can convince us about the same from within the universe itself


Thus there exists absolute problem of ‘confirmation bias’ with the modern science about the reality of the ‘scientific method’ and its proofs which are true within the ‘universe alone and not outside’. The realm of Vedanta/Hinduism is that of ‘universe and outside’. Now use of the term ‘universe and outside’ is for convenience of your understanding and there exists no such difference, please note according to the Vedanta.


Thus ‘scientific methods’ and so the ‘burden of proof’ is irrelevant to the Vedanta as its reach is beyond that.


In Judicial Proceedings there are two realities 1. Truth 2. False. Since both can be proved with the help of ‘REAL’ (from ordinary point of view-empirical even though subjective with reference to Brahman) things of the universe there is a meaning to the ‘burden of proof’.


When Vedanta calls everything to be ‘beyond reality’(mithya/maya) ‘burden of proof’ and ‘scientific methods’/proofs etc also become mithya/maya and so irrelevant. If science extends these instruments/means to all that is yet unknown it would be a great ‘confirmation bias’ on its part given the absence of the ‘theory of everything’ by it. Because what ‘theory of everything’ will throw out is uncertain.


Then what is the method to know truthfulness or falsehood of the Vedanta?


This alone is the relevant question at such occasions and answer is just ‘logical, critical, empirical reasoning and questioning to the one who claims to know the ultimate truth’. This is the only solution. Only questioning and questioning alone. That is why most of the shastras of Hindusim are in question-answer format e.g. Puranas, Bhagawat Geeta, Vichar Sagar with empirical examples like rope-snake etc.


All parts of my comment are different versions of the same concept ‘Mithy/Maya’ which explains everything. For further details please see this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta) and Vichar Sagar (http://sabhlokcity.com/2011/05/the-metap...hal-das-1/)



Conclusions:


1. Realm of Vedanta comprises of the nature of ‘theory of everything’/Brahman.(obviously it would be dealing with nature of scientific methods etc)


2. The nature of ‘scientific method’/proof etc does depend on what the science is yet to know as it is falsifiable (or equivalently it lacks the knowledge of theory of everything). Thus being the ultimate nature of ‘scientific proofs’ to be uncertain, the burden of proof cannot be passed on the Vedanta i.e. Road itself cannot become the Goal Or Assumption itself cannot become conclusion. Reason: For Vedanta Duality is untenable and there doesn’t exist the separate conclusion other than what is assumed (thus no problem of infinite regression or any existence of the universe as it is). This is not the case with science or Dvaita world. So following the scientific methods it cannot prove it to be non-existent which you are hard bent to impose upon Vedanta.


2. Most of the problems which this mankind is facing in terms of material achievements e.g. money, disease, technological developments, space dwelling and all that is being described in scientific tales and Puranas (eight Siddhies etc) can be really experienced and achieved by permutation and combinations of the available knowledge or that may be discovered over the centuries. But the real problem for the human being is that of ‘feelings, emotions, ambitions, egos, attachments, happiness, sorrow etc….. Basic problem is with their definitions etc. In the past these alone have played havoc with human beings and in the future they are the main challenges. Science is incapable of providing solution in this respect. Thus Indian Dvaita (Shastras) world was developed keeping in view these problems in focus. It doesn’t mean that it contradicts the material science. In Hindu tales people were having all those powers which science is yet going to acquire by way of technological advancement (e.g. aeroplanes, ammunition, eight Siddhies, far sightedsness-TV; etc) How that is achieved doesn’t become the issue here since ultimately it is a part of science (Yoga-is Hindu ancient version of science) and depends upon the advancement of the material knowledge of the mankind. The issue has been whether human being as an individual and social will be happy ever! Accordingly it developed this Dvaita world and not as the absolute truth.


3. It is absurd to talk against Hinduism, Vedanta, Puranas, Mahabharat, Ramayan etc since he alone (Jnani/Guru) can comment about the same who claims to know them as THEY ARE and their real nature and authenticity. Others can only give distorted meaning (see my entire comments) . Thus while we welcome 300 versions of Ramayanans as a matter of pride but not the interpretations which brig out the contradictions and misguide the ordinary men for understanding it differently. All scriptures are eligible to be corrected to suite the desh and kal but by the Jnani alone and nobody else in accordance with Bhagawat Geeta’s saying that ‘परिवर्तनहि सन्सार का नियम है/’. This is what Hinduism lagged behind and has been suffering today and altogether different topic.


4. There exists only one way to understand all this Vedanta and that is QUESTIONING ALONE and nothing else. Thus Vedanta cannot make you understand it just as a everyone reading a MSc Book need not understand it. But it is qualification and eligibility of the reader who seeks the knowledge. Either you never questioned or your questions are not answered to your satisfaction. I am sure it is second case with you.


So you are welcome to put your any relevant questions.


Basic qualification: Knowledge of the basic concept of Mithya/Maya as given in above links and pure and sincere approach based on reason and logic.


Dear all, I am aware that there are many questions which may remain unanswered from my side. I have tried to answer the most relevant ones.


It is impossible to answer all of your questions one by one for acute time/energy constraint. However please do ask the questions which you specifically think to be of important.


I am not seasoned writer so please bear with my style of writing.
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#40
(08-Jan-2012, 05:33 PM)ramesh Wrote: It appears that you people are mixing the concepts from Advaita and Dvaita of Hinduism and posing the questions

The responses here are from a framework of Evidential Foundationalism and Logical Positivism, and neither from the Idealism of the Advaita school or the empirical assertions of theism of the Dvaita school (Post #26). On a historical note, there has been no confusion in citing sources from our end, with the Prameya Shloka (which asserts the reality of the world) cited as central to the Dvaita school (Post #19) and the concept of vyAvahArika satyam cited as the hallmark of the Advaita school. There appears however to be considerable confusion among accommodationists as regards the contemporary use of the word 'dualism', because the Advaita Vedanta which is translated often as Monism, itself centrally features Cartesian Dualism! (Post #38)

(08-Jan-2012, 05:33 PM)ramesh Wrote: Obviously it is true that ordinary mortals cannot apprehend the Vedantic truth as it is. That is why it has been aptly called गुह्य ज्ञान (secret knowledge) even though it is totally open.

More plausible historical reasons have been offered for why Upanishadic speculations were labeled as 'rahasyam' or 'guhyam' in this article by Dr. Kamath.Also, apologists have some explaining to do when they casually say "It is secret though it is open" and about what are the criteria for identifying extraordinary mortals. A historical reality that cannot be wished away by apologists is that access to such knowledge was never 'totally open' and that opportunity denial was often on hereditary grounds. First off, apologists must make up their minds whether the Vedas are forbidden or mandatory.

(08-Jan-2012, 05:33 PM)ramesh Wrote: Rama and Krishna and other legends of Hinduism played their role in epics still they were totally silent from Vedantin point of view. For the ‘Jnani’ there are no prescriptions/restrictions which describe his behaviour.....You appear to mix these two radically apparently contradictory view points of Jnani and ordinary mortals. That is not justified.

The onus for supplying the criteria according to which a 'jnani' is different from an 'ordinary mortal' is upon the claimants of such exceptionalism. Also, those of us who are derided as ordinary mortals have no reason to be silent about our objections when the conduct of so-called jnanis militate against our humanistic principles. If it is claimed the Puranic descriptions of Rama or Krishna are supposedly the acme of human conduct and the ultimate counsel for human welfare, then those claims have indeed been made in the so-called Dvaita context and must therefore contend with the many objections raised about the sexism and supremacism that they are rife with (Post #38).

(08-Jan-2012, 05:33 PM)ramesh Wrote: For Vedanta there is no truth except Brahman/Atman. There isn’t any sort of dualism for Vedanta. Mind and brain are the same entity for it.

All Vedantic schools submit to the Bhagavad Gita as authority and the the Bhagavad Gita rejects any notion of materialism or the reducibility of consciousness to bodily processes. The following verses, among several others, leave hardly any room for doubt in this regard: 2:20 , 3:42
An assertion that Vedanta suggests that the 'mind and brain are the same' is one that is made in stupefying ignorance.

(08-Jan-2012, 05:33 PM)ramesh Wrote: Vedanta claims that such a ‘theory of everything’ is an impossible event.

Again, the Bhagavad Gita leaves little room for ambiguity in Verse 7:2 which claims that there is one thing which when known, amounts to a knowledge of everything. There is no scientific consensus that a Theory of Everything will eventually be found and this has been explained by Feynman. (Post #38)

(08-Jan-2012, 05:33 PM)ramesh Wrote: For such a solution you have to follow the rules of the subjective world (Ramayan, Mahabharat, Puranas, Vedas, Ayurveda, other religions and latest being MODERN SCIENCE of which Ayurveda is also part).

As said earlier, these proposed solutions must contend with the many objections raised about the sexism and supremacism that they are rife with (Post #38).

(08-Jan-2012, 05:33 PM)ramesh Wrote: 1. Why this world was created with suffering, problems?
2. If Ram and Krishna knew everything why did they themselves faced the problems?
3. Why Vedantic do not know what is going on in everybodys mind?
4. Were Hindu Gods sleeping when they were ruined by the Muslim fanatics?
5. Will Brahman/Shiva/Vishnu save the world when it would be hit by some big meteoroids etc? Will they help when one day Sun would be exhausted of its energy?

To suggest that the Universe has a purpose is an infantile teleological worldview. Prof. Dawkins explains here. The rest of the questions are only as meaningful as they will be when the mythological characters there are replaced with Yoda and Luke Skywalker and Vedanta is replaced by The Force.

(08-Jan-2012, 05:33 PM)ramesh Wrote: So you are welcome to put your any relevant questions.

This is a freethought forum and not one that can be readily hijacked for proselytisation about Vedantic metaphysics, revisionist Indology and Indian supremacism. There is nothing stopping those interested in these activities from beginning their own fora and inviting questions.



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#41


I repeat the often told Basic principles of Advait Vedanta which can be ascertained from any Vedantic Book.


1. There is the only truth-Brahman or Atman – No difference.

2. Universe is Mithya/Maya i.e. it doesn’t exist from Brahman point of view and is also synonymous with ignorance or Avidya. Vyavaharic satyam is part of this maya and has no existence from Brahman/Vedantic point of view. What the pratibhasic satyam (e.g. dream) is to the Vyavaharic satyam (e.g. Human Body, universe) so is the the Vyavaharic Satyam to the paramarthic satyam (Brahman)


1. Re: All Vedantic schools submit to the Bhagavad Gita as authority and the the Bhagavad Gita rejects any notion of materialism or the reducibility of consciousness to bodily processes. The following verses, among several others, leave hardly any room for doubt in this regard: 2:20 , 3:42
An assertion that Vedanta suggests that the 'mind and brain are the same' is one that is made in stupefying ignorance.


This was in context of my comment “For Vedanta there is no truth except Brahman/Atman. There isn’t any sort of dualism for Vedanta. Mind and brain are the same entity for it.”


When the body, bodily processes, materialism etc themselves are non-existent entity how is that question of soul/atman/Brahman reducing to body, bodily processes, materialism etc could ever arise even though the Geeta refers to ‘Body birth and body death’ etc? If references to body etc are not made then it would be extremely difficult to make understand the pupil the Vedantic truth with just four famous Mahavakyas alone. The theory on which satellites, computers etc work can not be taught to the students without their understanding the basic laws of physics like newtons law etc. So without any empirical/Vyavaharic truths like body etc a pupil cannot be initiated into the theory that nullifies the very existence of this empirical world. What the pratibhasic satyam (e.g. dream) is to the Vyavaharic satyam (e.g. Human Body) so is the the Vyavaharic Satyam to the paramarthic satyam (Brahman). So where is the dualism of any sort? Even there is no such a thing like mind, brain but only Brahman/atman. In view of this are you sure it was my stupefying ignorance? How?


The other sloka states the importance of consciousness on which the mind, body etc is based on and not the consciousness which is a result of the mind( and since it is yet to ascertained the exact nature of this consciousness by the science we identify it with the former one-thing is different) and as is essentially understood by your scientific community. Thus this consciousness is the same as soul/atman/Brahman. Thus the importance of the Parmarthic satyam over the vyavaharic satyam. You are arguing as if this vyavaharic satyam is stated to be the ‘satyam’ by which alone Brahman is meant. Thus why your interpretation is not a result of improper understanding of the slokas in view of Advaita Vedanta?


2. Re: Again, the Bhagavad Gita leaves little room for ambiguity in Verse 7:2 which claims that there is one thing which when known, amounts to a knowledge of everything. There is no scientific consensus that a Theory of Everything will eventually be found and this has been explained by Feynman. (Post #38)


This was in context of my comment “Vedanta claims that such a ‘theory of everything’ is an impossible event.”

What a great misinterpretation from your side! Can a theory be ever built which governs the objects seen in the dream? Can you find a formula which governs the atoms/quantum OF THE SNAKE which is seen in the rope in a dim light?

Once it is dawn upon the man that the objects which he saw were in the DREAM alone will he ever try to find the rules/theories which will govern those objects of dream? Won’t he say that such a theory is impossible?

The theory of everything which you are stating Geeta is referring to is the ‘awaken state’ of the man from the ‘dream’. It is that state of knowing the rope with the help of battery once it is confirmed that no such a snake exists. Given this fact how is that you are saying that the Geeta referred to this theory of everything (that nothing remains to be known after Brahman is known) was concerned about these objects of dream (the universe) alone? Never! Thus Geeta is stating one thing and you understand it altogether differently! Why not?


It would be highly improper to answer to your rest parts of your last comment pending the above discussion which is very very basic in nature and definitely will have tremendous impact on the same as to the understanding of you people and Hinduism. Let me wait for your sort of understanding and basis for that.



Re: This is a freethought forum and not one that can be readily hijacked for proselytisation about Vedantic metaphysics, revisionist Indology and Indian supremacism.

This was in context of my comment “So you are welcome to put your any relevant questions.”

It may please be noted that this comment of mine was a result of my conclusion that “There exists only one way to understand all this Vedanta and that is QUESTIONING ALONE and nothing else” in the context of ‘scientific methods’ becoming irrelevant to it and by any stretch of imagination I never indented what you alleged about me.

I am very deeply hurt by your reference to ‘proselytisation’ in this context. I still have a hope that it is possible for me to be freethinker of your sort based on the merit (alone) of the discussion and apologies for any inadvertent wrong signals which may occur as a result of my style of approach and would be interested to know and rectify the same.
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