Sai Baba and the sexual abuse charges (not to mention the murder charges)

[unsorted]

@mvish - here's something for you to consider. Do you think it's a coincidence that Sai Baba's miracles are also magic tricks that can be performed by an amateur magician? The *very same* tricks. Which involve misdirection and sleight of hand.

The most logical explanation is - they *are* magic tricks.

It also explains why we never see him do something really miraculous - say, for example, to rip his eyes out with a knife (with cameras and doctors present for verification), and then miraculously grow them back.

Your thoughts?

[siddharth]

For anyone who might be interested:

This fraud Sai Baba once "magically" made a golden watch appear "from thin air" and gave it to a businessman bhakt.

This businessman had the watch disassembled to find the product code embedded into it somewhere on the inside. He tracked down the source and the entire supply chain to find out that it was made in Japan, shipped to Chennai, where a particular shop would sell several such watches to the ashram on a monthly basis.

It - of course - is just a sleight of hand, just as Unsorted has mentioned above. There are several videos online which expose this trick of his.

If Sai Baba can make things appear magically from thin air, why doesn't he "create" food out of thin air and give some of it to this guy:



?

[mvish]

Well guys... i will answer those questions that were relevant ... laughing or giving some funny gestures will not establish any truth or make it right. It is likely that people would not take you guys seriously.

>>> “Is there any genuine benefit from such quotes/discourses? They just throw out some words.. "truth", "love"... What new concrete, verifiable truth/edification have they contributed?” <<<

Well if you were to teach an unscientific person some scientific concepts, they would not understand or get any genuine benefit out of it... simply because they are incapable... the problem is not with science but the person itself... same goes here... those who have no basic spiritual foundation... all these quotes makes no sense for them... as they are not capable of understanding... not to mention getting any genuine benefit!!

>>> Do you think it's a coincidence that Sai Baba's miracles are also magic tricks that can be performed by an amateur magician? <<<

Why do you want to think? Or assume? Why don’t you check out for yourself from the correct source instead of relying on unreliable anti-Sai source which are well known for false allegations, lies and fraud? What made you trust these people more than knowing from the direct source? I have personally come across atheists and sceptics whom have turned into believers after witnessing it for them self.

The questions you have to ask is, if any other “amateur magician” has done this, would you think he is capable of attracting international crowds as in the case of Sai Baba? Common sense will tell there is a difference here.

For your reading... “There are of course sceptics who argue that Sai Baba's miracles are nothing but cleaver conjuring tricks. The fact that he has levitated in front of hundreds of people or can materialise jewellery from thin air can be explained by simple trickery and sleight of hand. But when you read the thousands of testimonials or meet intelligent people whose lives have been completely transformed after an encounter with Sai Baba you soon realise that to trick people on this scale would be impossible. For example Sai Baba will often ask people "What do you want" and many people will ask him to materialise very obscure things: fruits out of season, a perpetual motion watch, a map of the world in the future, some wood from the original cross and specific medicines. To keep all this up the sleeves of his robe would be impossibility.”

>>> “why we never see him do something really miraculous - say, for example, to rip his eyes out with a knife” <<<

Well you never bothered to read his discourses to know why he did not do that... the answer is simple... there is no purpose for it.

“The Avatar comes to transform humanity but this must take place through the transformation of individuals making up humanity. To raise bread we mix a pinch of yeast into the dough and the action of the yeast spreads throughout the mix, eventually leavening the entire loaf. So the Avatar works through individuals, transforming them into the divinity they essentially are. The light from the many individuals gradually dispells the darkness of ignorance, impacting all of humanity.”

>>> “If Sai Baba can make things appear magically from thin air, why doesn't he "create" food out of thin air and give some of it to this guy” <<<

There have been accounts of materialization of food.

>>> He tracked down the source and the entire supply chain to find out that it was made in Japan, shipped to Chennai, where a particular shop would sell several such watches to the ashram on a monthly basis. <<<

I gave the link to the site http://www.saisathyasai.com/ which is quite comprehensive in clarifying the entire allegation levied on Sai Baba by dubious parties... do some research before asking me questions; here is a link on this subject in case you can’t find it:

http://www.saisathyasai.com/baba/Ex-Baba...story.html

It concludes: “Needless to say, all it took was one email to disprove a 20 year old lie that has been published on Anti-Sai, Rationalist and Skeptic Sites. Better the truth be known now, than never (even if it is 20 years after the fact). This once again goes to show how those inimical towards Sathya Sai Baba will not pause to verify the truth first-hand (which is the case with so many prominent Anti-Sai Activists), but rather seek stories with negative content and try to pass it off as the "truth" to the unsuspecting masses.”

Hope it helps.

[mvish]

One more comment on feeding the poor as you asked why not create food by miracle.... well you can feed the poor for 1 or 2 days through miracle... but it will eventually defeat the purpose... as you have not thought people to feed the poor... if you can remember on the video clip that you gave on “freethought” it talks about teaching people to catch fish rather than feeding them fish... the same logic applies here. In fact Sai Baba has thought many ordinary and common men to serve the poor and this itself is a good transformation brought by him.... just last week in my place, the Sai Baba devotees sent 2 truck load of food, groceries, stationeries etc to a poor region... these type of activities are going on throughout the world... without getting reported in the media!!

The question we should ask is, how many people have we inspired to feed the poor?... can it be even comparable on what Sai Baba had inspired?

It is easy to criticize people out of nothing, but it is very hard to inspire people because that requires one to be a true role model!

[unsorted]

(01-Aug-2010, 08:08 AM)mvish Wrote: The questions you have to ask is, if any other “amateur magician” has done this, would you think he is capable of attracting international crowds as in the case of Sai Baba? Common sense will tell there is a difference here.

No, common sense will tell you that it is very much possible for tricksters to gather international acclaim. Uri Geller, for instance. Success doesn't imply legitimacy - that's just luck and timing.

(01-Aug-2010, 08:08 AM)mvish Wrote: Well you never bothered to read his discourses to know why he did not do that... the answer is simple... there is no purpose for it.

That's a convenient excuse - whenever someone challenges you, position yourself on higher ground, claim to be "above" such pettiness etc. It's a case of special pleading.

[Lije]

(01-Aug-2010, 08:08 AM)mvish Wrote: >>> Do you think it's a coincidence that Sai Baba's miracles are also magic tricks that can be performed by an amateur magician? <<<

Why do you want to think? Or assume? Why don’t you check out for yourself from the correct source instead of relying on unreliable anti-Sai source which are well known for false allegations, lies and fraud? What made you trust these people more than knowing from the direct source? I have personally come across atheists and sceptics whom have turned into believers after witnessing it for them self.

The questions you have to ask is, if any other “amateur magician” has done this, would you think he is capable of attracting international crowds as in the case of Sai Baba? Common sense will tell there is a difference here.

For your reading... “There are of course sceptics who argue that Sai Baba's miracles are nothing but cleaver conjuring tricks. The fact that he has levitated in front of hundreds of people or can materialise jewellery from thin air can be explained by simple trickery and sleight of hand. But when you read the thousands of testimonials or meet intelligent people whose lives have been completely transformed after an encounter with Sai Baba you soon realise that to trick people on this scale would be impossible. For example Sai Baba will often ask people "What do you want" and many people will ask him to materialise very obscure things: fruits out of season, a perpetual motion watch, a map of the world in the future, some wood from the original cross and specific medicines. To keep all this up the sleeves of his robe would be impossibility.”

Please take a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yblhsr1O4IQ

And here is Narendra Nayak performing one of Sai Baba's "miracles"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fypqFQs0-wY#t=6m00s

If I were to observe a magician upclose I wouldn't be able to tell how he does a trick. That is his specialty. Magicians practice their tricks for days or even months to make them look convincing. But Sai Baba is a third rate magician. A professional like David Blaine would never get caught so easily on camera. Even if you take HD camera and focus only on Blaine's hands, you would still be clueless as to how he performs his tricks.

Applying your logic, I have come to the following conclusion:

David Blaine is God. He is The One. He is the Prime Mover of the world. But he does not admit it. It is a test. Only those who have acquire the exalted knowledge will be able to see his divinity. Millions have witnessed his miracles, but out of ignorance dismiss them as mere magic tricks. But they can't explain how he performs them. He can rip his heart out. He can breathe life into a dead bird. He can break the head of a chicken and then reattach it. He can levitate off the ground. How can a person who can do so many miracles not be a God? Those who question his Godliness are ignoramuses.

[unsorted]

Lije, you are mistaken. Everybody here knows that the one true God is Randi.

[unsorted]

Just saw that video Lije linked to above. It's incredible... the other guy actually comes over and holds the trophy, thus freeing up Sai Baba's hand to pluck the chain out from underneath. @mvish, I'd love to you know your reaction to this video. Surely you see it's a trick?

[mvish]

I have already given the link about these movie clips....

Deceptive And Edited Movies & Video Clips On The ExBaba Website Against Sathya Sai Baba
http://www.saisathyasai.com/baba/Ex-Baba...ovies.html

Able to do similar act with trickery do not mean the original must also be the same. These anti-Sai video clips are are just some selected ones which are not clear and can be interpreted anyway you want... however there are many good videos in HD quality that dispels these doubts easily... if you know some devotees personally, sure they will be able to lend you one.

[Lije]

(01-Aug-2010, 02:48 PM)mvish Wrote: I have already given the link about these movie clips....

Deceptive And Edited Movies & Video Clips On The ExBaba Website Against Sathya Sai Baba
http://www.saisathyasai.com/baba/Ex-Baba...ovies.html

Able to do similar act with trickery do not mean the original must also be the same. These anti-Sai video clips are are just some selected ones which are not clear and can be interpreted anyway you want... however there are many good videos in HD quality that dispels these doubts easily... if you know some devotees personally, sure they will be able to lend you one.

From that site you linked:

Quote:Any manifestation associated with Sathya Sai Baba's physical form will be inextricably tied to doubt (as most of these manifestations can be duplicated by magicians).

How very convenient. "Can be duplicated by magicians". Hmmm. Why is that so? What could be the reason? Is it because they are magic tricks?

And then this:

Quote:However, what magicians cannot duplicate are healings, visions, dreams, cures, miracles and miraculous manifestations that occur all around the world , thousands of miles away from Sathya Sai Baba's physical form. See the following links for examples:

All I could see are photos of Sai Baba and vibuthi placed on other objects. I too can get you photos of David Blaine that have "manifested" in my house. So what is your point?

Also the video links in that site are dead.

Finally, all this discussion would be unnecessary if Sai Baba were to perform a miracle under controlled conditions (You know about such experiments right? You work in R&D in an MNC). Get me evidence for such a miracle. Else there is no point continuing this thread any further.

[unsorted]

(01-Aug-2010, 02:48 PM)mvish Wrote: These anti-Sai video clips are are just some selected ones which are not clear and can be interpreted anyway you want... however there are many good videos in HD quality that dispels these doubts easily... if you know some devotees personally, sure they will be able to lend you one.

You're a devotee right? Put one of your doubt-dispelling videos up on YouTube (they allow high-def vidoes now) and send us the link.

[siddharth]

Allow me to digress, but here is something I witnessed with my very eyes:

Several years ago, I along with my dad and several of his colleagues went to Sai Baba's ashram (my dad also happens to not believe in this fraud, but there was a certain professional compulsion behind the visit). Now while the poor had to wait outside or at the back, my dad and his colleagues - being senior bureaucrats - happened to have a "special darshan" with the fraud himself.

Now, before they had an opportunity to meet Sai Baba, they were made to sit and wait while some of his helpers tried talking to this group of bureaucrats.

Later on, this group of bureaucrats was taken and made to stand in a hall where Sai Baba would later enter. Curiously, each of the bureaucrat was made to stand in front of a different pillar. That is, each bureaucrat got his own pillar, and the helpers told them to not move away from their respective places. Now just before Sai Baba entered, my dad's colleague, who was standing in front of a pillar closer to the stage area, left to answer the calls of nature. My dad (I was beside him) then decided to move to the pillar in front of him which had just been "vacated" by his colleague.

Enter Sai Baba.

He went to one colleague of my dad's, and then the other. He pretended to "read" their mind and then "correctly guessed their problems" and offered some sort of random advise and gifts and moved on. Those two were stunned as to how their problems were correctly read by the "god" himself.

Then he approached my dad. He first closed his eyes and pretend to have a slight vision. Then he continued by saying, "Your wife has cancer and I understand that you are naturally worried about this. Apart from this, your mother's passing away recently has deeply shattered you. You should..." and then he said suggested something that isn't really important for the sake of this conversation.

So here is the deal. My mother didn't have cancer then, and she doesn't today. And my grandmother - my dad's mother - is still alive and well!

Why then did this "god" of yours get his "readings" wrong? He didn't. My dad had taken up the pillar of his colleague whose wife did in fact have cancer and whose mother had in fact passed away then. But this colleague was busy pissing his way to glory in the loo.

It is so very obvious that this was stage managed. The vast nexus of Sai Baba can easily do a little fact finding of his "esteemed" bhakts. Of course he doesn't do "readings" for the poor! Who wants to waste time to find something out about an "insignificant" person? He only caters his special tricks for the "rich and powerful". The gold chains are "conjured" and given mostly given to people already rich. What is happening there is systemic delusion of the masses (you included).

But gotta hand it to the man for doing his research right and remembering which pillar belongs to which bureaucrat. That's like a good magician.

P.S. You ought to download and watch Derren Brown's Trick of the Mind in its entirely.