The Collapse of Indian Civilization?
#13
(30-Oct-2012, 06:25 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote:
(30-Oct-2012, 05:02 AM)Deleted User Wrote: From archival videos, existing roads looked pretty damn good with less cars than today where drivers can't simple traffic rules. Drivers such s yourself I suppose.

Empty roads doesn't imply better infrastructure health. It also might mean that there weren't as many cars back then as of present.

A quick google search (wiki link) indicates that road infrastructure is better now than anytime in history.

Goddamn it pull your head out of your ass and try to understand the point I'm making. You're too obsessed with roads. Can't you see the big picture, that being where the country is heading?
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#14
(30-Oct-2012, 06:56 AM)Deleted User Wrote: Man, you're an idiot. You don't get the point.

(30-Oct-2012, 06:56 AM)Deleted User Wrote: Goddamn it pull your head out of your ass and try to understand the point I'm making. You're too obsessed with roads. Can't you see the big picture, that being where the country is heading?

Seeking only confirmatory evidence for a sweeping claim like "Civilizational collapse is imminent" is something to assiduously avoid, and to provide competing evidence is, far from being idiotic, the scientifically recommended way to approach the problem.

Besides, as the forum rules more than adequately make clear, personal attacks aren't welcome here.
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#15
(30-Oct-2012, 07:30 AM)arvindiyer Wrote:
(30-Oct-2012, 06:56 AM)Deleted User Wrote: Man, you're an idiot. You don't get the point.

(30-Oct-2012, 06:56 AM)Deleted User Wrote: Goddamn it pull your head out of your ass and try to understand the point I'm making. You're too obsessed with roads. Can't you see the big picture, that being where the country is heading?

Seeking only confirmatory evidence for a sweeping claim like "Civilizational collapse is imminent" is something to assiduously avoid, and to provide competing evidence is, far from being idiotic, the scientifically recommended way to approach the problem.

Besides, as the forum rules more than adequately make clear, personal attacks aren't welcome here.

[1] I didn't say it's imminent. What I meant is is it hopeless. [2] The "competing evidence" is irrelevant to the overall message. [3] Don't be a PC fool. Once must sully one's consciousness in ad hominem attacks once a while especially to put the topic back on track and not deviating into pesky distractions such as improvement of roads or what not. If you cared so much for roads, you wouldn't mind discussing Modi's 3 lane highways.
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#16
(30-Oct-2012, 07:38 AM)Deleted User Wrote: [1] I didn't say it's imminent. What I meant is is it hopeless.

Either way, they are claims that can't be established by mere hasty generalization.

(30-Oct-2012, 07:38 AM)Deleted User Wrote: [2]The "competing evidence" is irrelevant to the overall message.

It is so if one has prematurely and obdurately committed to a conclusion based on cherrypicked favorable evidence.

(30-Oct-2012, 07:38 AM)Deleted User Wrote: [3] Don't be a PC fool. Once must sully one's consciousness in ad hominem attacks once a while especially to put the topic back on track and not deviating into pesky distractions such as improvement of roads or what not.

The claim that ad hominem attacks actually are a remedy to distractions rather than a distraction themselves, is an extra-ordinary claim requiring extra-ordinary evidence. Anti-harassment stances and a commitment to maintain an environment for inclusive dialogue have been guiding principles of this enterprise since inception. Quoting from here:

Quote:At Nirmukta however, we are careful to make a distinction between ideas and people. Religions are comprised of ideas, and as with all ideas that Freethinkers deal with, must be scrutinized and dismissed if found wanting. People, however, have thoughts, desires, foresight and the ability to feel compassion, kindness, pain, sadness and empathy, and so must be treated on a different footing. Simply put, people deserve respect, ideas do not. This simple distinction is lost on many people, both religious and otherwise.
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#17
* [1] I didn't say it's imminent. What I meant is is it hopeless. [2] The "competing evidence" is irrelevant to the overall message. [3] Don't be a PC fool. Once must sully one's consciousness in ad hominem attacks once a while especially to put the topic back on track and not deviating into pesky distractions such as improvement of roads or what not. If you cared so much for roads, you wouldn't mind discussing Modi's 3 lane highways.*

Dude, you were the one who brought up roads. Not me. My point was that if you pick any index of social welfare and track it over the years you will find that things have dramatically improved in India. Something that would contradict your prognosis of civilizational collapse. I originally used infant mortality as an example. You then brought up roads, population, intellectualism. I pointed out that if you look for data you will find that things have improved on these fronts as well. I gave you two links, one for roads, and other for population and asked you to give me a proxy for the third. Instead of responding to the post you started throwing temper tantrums.

I understand that you are in a rush and want to alert us to the general point of civilizational collapse. It is in fact quite possible that such a collapse is near. But if you want people to heed your call you still have to convince them with evidence.
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#18
(29-Oct-2012, 09:53 PM)arvindiyer Wrote: Adopting an approach of realization-focused comparison rather than transcendental institutionalism centered around a Party or the Sangh, seems an approach that is better suited to India based on both historical precedent and historical warnings.

At the time of writing, historical warnings are being uttered with foreboding or softened with learned stoicism among self-identified progressives in India. Some like Shiv Viswanathan fear the arrival of a sickening time when a sanitised evil becomes the prospect of a democratised future whereas others like Ramachandra Guha counsel readers to 'keep the faith' that Indian democracy, not to speak of India itself, will survive any imminent onslaught. Neither unmitigated overnight collapses nor unstinted and unmarred 'golden ages' abound in the historical records representing the scholastic consensus, though such are the narratives that dominate the worldviews of partisan camps driven by projects of transcendental institutionalism. Often these Utopian projects are also revivalist ones, among which the most influential one in contemporary India is based on the myth of the 'Hindu Eden' (reminisced with anguish by the phrase 'glorious past') laid waste by invading marauders, but other variants no less ethnocentric and also notions of romantic primitvism
continue to find audiences.

Here is an excerpt that can be a useful reminder to members of any society flirting with romantic projects, who have lapsed into treating origin myths and eschatology as history, and have taken a black-and-white view of history as dystopias yielding to utopias and vice versa. Expressing bemused disbelief at such a myth that 'we once had it all' with gentle humor, the irrepressible Cornel West in his inimitable style offers here a reality-based commentary of American society, rejecting golden-age myths pertaining to the past or future.

(Watch from 7m38s)




Quote:Romanticism thoroughly saturated the discourse of modern thinkers. Can you totalize? Can you make things whole? Can you create harmony? If you can't...disappointment! Disappointment is always at the center. Failure is always at the center.Where did the romanticism come from? Why begin with romanticism? I don't begin with romanticism. Remember, Beethoven said on his deathbed you know. "I have learnt to look at the world in all of its darkness and evil and still love it." And that's not romantic Beethoven; this is the Beethoven of the string quartets and 131, the greatest string quartet ever written (in classical music, but of course in its European forms, Beethoven in the grand master). But in the string quartets, you go back to those movements, there is no romantic wholeness to be shattered as in the early Beethoven. He has given up on that. This is where Chekhov begins. This is where the Blues starts. This is where jazz starts. Do you think Charlie Parker is upset that he can't sustain a harmony? He didn't care about the harmony. He's trying to completely ride on the dissonance, ride on the blue notes. Of course he's got harmony in terms of interventions here and there, but why start with this obsession with wholeness...and then you can't have it and you're disappointed and want to have a drink...and melancholia...and blah blah blah... No the Blues, my kind of Blues, begins with catastrophe, begins with the Angel of History in Benjamin's thesis...Begins with piles of wreckage, one pile on an other...That's the starting point! The Blues is personal catastrophe lyrically expressed.

And Black people in America and the modern world, living with these vicious legacies of White supremacy, it is how you generate an elegance of earned self-togetherness, so that you have to stick to it in the face of the catastrophic and the calamitous and the horrendous and the scandalous and the monstrous. See part of the problem though is that when you have a romantic project, you are so obsessed with 'time as loss' and 'time as a taker' whereas as a Chekhovian Christian I want to stress as well, time as a gift and time as a giver so that: 'Yes it is failure, but how good is the failure?' You've built some wonderful things. You know Beckett could say 'Try again. Fail again. Fail better'. But why call it failure? Why not say you have a sense of gratitude that you were able to do as much as you did? That you were able to love as much and think as much and play as much? Why think you needed the whole thing? See what I mean?

This is even disturbing about America, and of course America is a romantic project, this paradisal 'City on the Hill' and all this other mass of lies and so on...I say, "No...No!". America is a very fragile democratic experiment predicated on the dispossession of the lands of indigenous peoples, and the enslavement of African peoples and the subjugation of women and the marginalization of gays and lesbians. It has great potential. But this notion that somehow we had it all, or ever will have it all has got to go...you have to push it to the side. And once you push all that to the side, then you tend to evacuate the language of disappointment, and the language of failure. And you say, "How much have we done? How have we been able to do it? Can we do more?".
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