The Zeitgeist movement video
#25
Wow, you're fast....two replies already?! Haven't read it fully, just skimmed through; don't have the time now. Leaving for home.

I'll post again after reading through your replies thoroughly, and after I've gone through the links both of you have posted - I haven't done that as of now.

Good night.

P.S:
Ajita Kamal, you don't know the first thing about me, and yet I saw some comment on 'my failures' somewhere up there? I find that dangerously close to a personal attack; could you please use language that comes off as less insulting to the person it's addressed to? You ARE the administrator....
Reply
#26
Quote:P.S:
Ajita Kamal, you don't know the first thing about me, and yet I saw some comment on 'my failures' somewhere up there? I find that dangerously close to a personal attack; could you please use language that comes off as less insulting to the person it's addressed to? You ARE the administrator....

You are wrong about this as well. I do not have to know anything about you to be able to directly draw from your words. My use of the word "failure" was to qualify in context a shortcoming that you openly admitted to. But it is you who began the personal attacks, thus prompting me to take an adversarial tone towards you. In fact, I was initially just attacking an idea when you directed you attack against my character instead of at my argument.

As I mentioned in my first response to you in this thread, it is you who initiated the personal attacks, and once that initiation began the lines of debate were re-drawn, by you. Multiple times through this thread you have made personal attacks against me, starting with your suggestion without any evidence or explanation that I would be disinclined to read up on your links (this was the attack that changed the ground rules in our interaction). My claim above, unlike yours, was carefully laid out in context and did not make any assumptions or baseless claims/accusations against you. The context in this case is the argument from ignorance that you used to justify the Zeitgeist movement. You essentially claimed that you have not read anything from the scientific/sociological or academic quarters on the specific areas that the movement is concerned about. It is not a personal attack when I am simply reiterating what you said.

And, yes, I am one of the admins, but that doesn't mean that you can walk all over me and then accuse me of making personal attacks when I respond. I have had heated disagreements before, but the majority of my interactions are friendly and joyous. The intent behind Nirmukta is to discuss ideas and scrutinize them, while building a community of freethinkers. This doesn't mean that I should be willing to accommodate all those who attack me personally.

In any case, let's discuss the substantive issues that have been raised. I'd like to get your response to my previous two posts, containing the (two point) criticism and the pseudosicence seen within the movement. Let's leave out the rhetoric and stick to to-the-point analysis.
"Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian"
~ J.B.S.Haldane, on being asked to falsify evolution.
Reply
#27
@ Ajita Kamal

1. I apologize for the personal attacks.
2. I now realize my whole argument really was a straw man. I did not really understand the movement for what it was due to my confirmation bias. I didn't know what confirmation bias was in the first place, but do now, thanks to you.
3. I did not specify explicitly that I was defending TVP and not TZM, and I apologize for that.

About the second 'straw man' that you said I put forth - 'The scientific method, which has given us modern technology, is a flawed way of trying to solve problems? ..... I assume that's because you don't know about TZM/TVP.' - This should've been '... I assume that's because you don't know the scientific method is really used in TZM' - my mistake, again. Yes, as it stands now, it was a straw man argument. Sorry.

4. I have read through the links both of you posted - the one about the zeitgeist conspiracy was really eye-opening, I had no idea there were so many issues with the movement; like I said earlier, all I thought I knew was that TZM was supposedly scientific - I realize now that it's not.
And A.K. - I had trouble even getting to the end of each link that you posted (those blog entries) - I'm not someone who usually reads that kind of stuff. Half of it went over my head; and I kid you not, bored me to death. I would rather not get involved in a discussion involving these topics. And I realize they make up a significant part of the discussion when talking about societal change. I guess I'll leave it to the people actually trying to solve these problems :)
5. No, I do not believe 9/11 was an inside job.
6. There is, in my opinion, a possibility that the economic system of the world is at least influenced by powerful groups of individuals; I find no reason to rule out that possibility entirely. No, I don't believe 'they' - 'run everything'.

I consider myself a member of the Zeitgeist movement no longer. I still support what the Jaque Fresco / The Venus Project is trying to do, though.

Thank you both, I have learned a lot.

Goodbye.
Reply
#28
@JustAnotherRandomHuman

This has probably been the most interesting conversation I have had in a long time smile

However, I wouldn't recommend that you stop discussing such issues. In fact, this is exactly what such forums are for! There already exist - in the forms of academic journals, books, etc - all the information one needs to form an opinion about more or less everything there is. However, what many of us lack is the time and the skill that is needed to understand several issues. Such forums play a great role in building a community of people interested in knowing more and understanding the world. I only hope you stick around.

Sid
Reply
#29
Quote:1. I apologize for the personal attacks.

Way to go making me feel like a dick for being strident Blush Accepted, of course, and I am sorry about responding the way I did.

I feel that the Zeitgeist movement does have its merits, but as pointed out, there are the crazies in the movement. TVP definitely sounds more rooted in reality. I certainly think that such movements have a role. These things comprise the regular waxing and waning of social change. They certainly have an impact because of their ability to mobilize people (votes) and money. But the actual ideas, academic inventions, cultural expressions, private actions, public policies, political systems and legal guidelines that fall into place and determine the course of the modern human story are the result of a complex web of interactions. These interactions exist on the edge of chaos, where life as we know it thrives.

Quote:And A.K. - I had trouble even getting to the end of each link that you posted (those blog entries) - I'm not someone who usually reads that kind of stuff. Half of it went over my head; and I kid you not, bored me to death. I would rather not get involved in a discussion involving these topics. And I realize they make up a significant part of the discussion when talking about societal change. I guess I'll leave it to the people actually trying to solve these problems smile

To be honest, I'd rather deal with generalities and ignore the details. But the articles that I posted, the ones by Dr. Wadhawan, have some interesting stuff that is not too detailed. Specifically, I wanted you to check out what complexity theory has to say about how societies and other large groups of intelligent agents function. I think that if you read a bit more about this stuff, you'd be hooked. There are so many ways of looking at this subject, and complexity science is very much a generalist's perspective.

Quote:I consider myself a member of the Zeitgeist movement no longer. I still support what the Jaque Fresco / The Venus Project is trying to do, though.

And thanks to you, I know a bit more now. I will check out the Venus project, and if Jaque Fresco does indeed promote what you say he does, then I'm all for it. The skeptic in me still thinks its mostly about awareness and creating a favorable socio-political environment for progress, but such an environment is indispensable, and such movements have changed the course of history before, indirectly. Meanwhile, I'll stick to science when it comes to understanding the world and deciding what the best course ahead is, given my moral premises.

Lastly, please stick around and participate in the other discussions on this forum. Create a discussion, if you're interested in another subject. There is still a lot of stuff that we can talk about. I have a feeling we'd agree about most of it, and when we don't, it will be fun to learn more!
"Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian"
~ J.B.S.Haldane, on being asked to falsify evolution.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)