The Nirmukta Freethought Community

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIxML6j1y68

I have received this by email several times. And would like your comments on this conversation between Dalai Lama and Leonardo Boff.

Just goes to show that people thousands of years ago had no chance of "not being" smitten by these supposedly larger than life characters and seemingly preaching out worldly wisdom with such calm and convincing tone that you had no chance not to follow them & also given the fact there were no satisfactory alternative counter explanations most of the time (like proper Science).

Although what Dalai Lama said in this was very neutral in its meaning, this very things can be skewed over thousands of years to form a radical organization by the good 'ol "boys club" otherwise known today as Religion.

And what he said has already been discussed so many times by freethinkers, notable atheists and evolutionists that, being moral and having ethics which are generally considered universal have nothing to do with any religion or their teachings. They were character traits which formed as part of our early evolutionary development. And later on formed and mixed into even complex customs of ours.
"Treat others the way you expect other to treat you". Religion wasn't the one which taught us this.

(19-05-2010 05:34 PM)Varun Wrote:  Although what Dalai Lama said in this was very neutral in its meaning, this very things can be skewed over thousands of years to form a radical organization by the good 'ol "boys club" otherwise known today as Religion.

Buddhism itself is a shining example of that. It started out as an agnostic philosophy and today we find people worshiping giant statues of the Buddha.

Why is that even a question...? It's like asking, what's best - thieving, dacoity, killing, murder, rape? Pick your choice.

(20-05-2010 12:02 AM)Lije Wrote:  Buddhism itself is a shining example of that. It started out as an agnostic philosophy and today we find people worshiping giant statues of the Buddha.

Moreover, Buddhism is far from the non-violent and egalitarian religion that people make it out to be. Buddhism is not immune to the same common problems that plague all religious ideologies. These problems are not necessarily connected to the teachings and practices that are core to the religion, but are the result of the nature of religious identity and the in-group out-group mentality that is synonymous with the notion of subscribing to a religious faith.

For a good read on the history of Buddhist violence: http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/su...0195394832

More: http://www.sangam.org/articles/view/?id=118

Another long ignored fact about Buddhism is the misogyny, which is practiced quite openly in many Buddhist monasteries and places of worship. This is another one of those things that are suppressed in the new Western interpretation of Eastern mysticism. http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7538.html

Quote:Faure concludes that while Buddhism is, in practice, relentlessly misogynist, as far as misogynist discourses go it is one of the most flexible and open to contradiction.

One of the worst things that the West ignores about the Dalai Lama is his support of Buddhist abuse of children in the form of child-gods. Also, there are reported cases of sexual abuse of children by Monks: http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/EN/links.htm#CHILD
Apparently other forms of sexual abuse are also common among Buddhist monks: http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/EN/links.htm#SEXABUSE

Thanks for the links Ajita. Just shows that any amount of irrational leeway, however small it be, will eventually lead to an abusive system. It is also an indicator of how hard it is to create a free thought society. Free thinking is not an easy task. We can't say that the book says so and relax our thought process. We have to constantly question our beliefs in light of new evidence.

This child abuse thing, that Sai Baba guy doesn't get enough attention to this regard as well. He has had numerous accusations of child abuse as well. I always smelt cover-up on that one.

Supposedly celebrate men, no women and innocent children around, sooner or later its a disaster waiting to happen.
Its almost like Evolution no matter which separate cut of continent you talk of, it works every time to the same effect sooner of later with no exceptions.
Its happened in Christian church for who knows how long in their 1500 year history. I'll go and say even the Nazi's weren't that bad at what they did.
In Buddhism as Ajita mentioned.
Islam, as Ahmedinejad said "there are no gays in Iran" thats about enough explanation to show the ignorance there.
Hinduism, i am sure it happens, child abuse happens in families in India i know for a fact, religion is no different. its just that the examples are really hard to find 'coz its supposedly taboo and every media house gets a high fever in advance, hinduism is equally fundamentalist now i feel.
If it continues i am sure this site is going to become famous like that whole youtube/facebook fiasco in pakistan recently. People just can't face up to the facts, sad.

(21-05-2010 08:39 PM)Varun Wrote:  If it continues i am sure this site is going to become famous like that whole youtube/facebook fiasco in pakistan recently. People just can't face up to the facts, sad.

That would mean this site is having some impact and we look forward to that day . But seriously, as discussed in this thread, Internet censorship has a great tendency to backfire.

(20-05-2010 12:45 AM)egotwist Wrote:  Why is that even a question...? It's like asking, what's best - thieving, dacoity, killing, murder, rape? Pick your choice.

(20-05-2010 05:56 PM)Ajita Kamal Wrote:  These problems are not necessarily connected to the teachings and practices that are core to the religion

Ajita,
Are you familiar with the Kosala Samyutta?
In it, a king named Pasenadi fights to defend his kingdom from aggression, and is praised by the Buddha for doing so.

Lije Wrote:It started out as an agnostic philosophy and today we find people worshiping giant statues of the Buddha.

Let's be careful not to portray Buddhism as a "100% rational religion". If you look through Buddhist scriptures, you will find places where the Buddha goes to various realms and has conversations with gods and goddesses. You will also find places where the Buddha talks about various miracles that are possible.

All religions are different glimpses of the equal untruth. So its not so much as a best religion but something like least worse religion (Doesn't sound quite right but when has anything to do with religion sound sensible.)

Also, lets not forget that Hirohito's army was completely inspired by Buddhism. Pol Pot of the Khmer Rouge was a buddhist and 'Theraveda Buddhism' was the official religion under the worst dictatorial regime in the world.

Another article that is critical of Buddhism:

Quote:Buddhism's moral and metaphysical worldview cannot easily be reconciled with science—or, more generally, with modern humanistic values.

Quote:What's worse, Buddhism holds that enlightenment makes you morally infallible—like the pope, but more so. Even the otherwise sensible James Austin perpetuates this insidious notion. " 'Wrong' actions won't arise," he writes, "when a brain continues truly to express the self-nature intrinsic to its [transcendent] experiences." Buddhists infected with this belief can easily excuse their teachers' abusive acts as hallmarks of a "crazy wisdom" that the unenlightened cannot fathom.

Quote:But what troubles me most about Buddhism is its implication that detachment from ordinary life is the surest route to salvation. Buddha's first step toward enlightenment was his abandonment of his wife and child, and Buddhism (like Catholicism) still exalts male monasticism as the epitome of spirituality.