deleted posts
#1

this is just for deleted posts and members are requested to engage in discussion by making a separate thread or posting in appropriate threads which are very well categorized in the forum
#2
This is a thread from the Delhi Freethinkers group, moved here in accordance to new rules requiring all discussion on ideological subjects to be limited to the forums (here) and to the discussion sections on IA fb page and Nirmukta fb group.
http://nirmukta.net/Thread-Freethought-A...s-fb-group-

reason
the comments were diverting from the main topic

other reasons were made clear in the last comment,
there are 3 points here
1)why was charvaka banned - tiwari and rajesh you did not read his comments and did not witness his disruption so you should not be discussing that
2)was there democracy in deciding admins ? yes all admins were decided by voting before you joined
2)why moderate?- had you been a part of discussion forums you would know how hard it becomes to be a part of unmoderated groups and now i can see this discussion needs moderation , i will now remove this post and urge you not to initiate it again why? because whether or not moderation should be there and whether trolling should be accepeted will be discussed soon but not here as facebook generates a lot of noise the forum provide a much better platform with option to edit your typos quote and the discussion will be archived unlike facebook where it dissolves into flooding comments , you will be invited to that discussion and your points will be considered while making decision THAT is democracy
#3
This is a thread by Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress removed on 7th june






Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress
I m sorry Siddharth Singh, i do not support such action of banning XYZ

Freedom of speech comes with right to offend. We offend religions all the time. So, it's okay for religious ones to ban us !!?

A great way to check how a democracy is functioning is the way it handles it's dissenters.

If he had used expletives , i was with you. That too, if he is forewarned to change his language or it is mentioned in rules of the group.

Difference in opinion is not valid reason. But..Alas.........
4 hours ago · Like · · Unsubscribe
Aditya Upreti and 2 others like this.

Siddharth Singh I'm sorry but you are only aware of what he has said here in this group. You probably haven't read his posts elsewhere. "Charvak Bharati" was banned because:

1. he made derogatory remarks against atheists on Nirmukta who were ex-Muslims, and claimed that they aren't really atheists.

2. he used derogatory remarks against Muslims in general. We at Nirmukta do not promote bigotry. We criticise all religions, including Islam, but never attack people in general, be it Hindu or Muslim or whatever. We do, of course, criticise individuals such as the Pope or Puttaparty Sai Baba.

3. he promoted Hindu woo, and sounds like a Hindu nationalist (even if he is an atheist. Remember, Veer Savarkar and Narendra Modi are self confessed atheists).

4. it's a fake profile. That is clearly not his name.

5. this does not constitute a violation of the freedom of speech. He is free to say whatever he wants online. He is just not welcome to say it in our group and disrupt our conversations.

6. hence, this is not about a difference in opinion. Many in the community have varied opinions about stuff.

I would like you to read this post on what constitutes a troll: http://nirmukta.com/2010/09/08/trolls-an...ht-groups/

Cheers.
4 hours ago · Like · 4 people

Sunil D'Monte Glad you posted that link, I was about to. I urge everyone to read it - I was clueless about why such actions are necessary until I read it.
4 hours ago · Like · 4 people

Ajita Kamal Let's also keep in mind that Nirmukta members have had transparent discussions on how the group should be moderated: http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=61...opic=22096

So when we talk about moderating with the purpose of best serv...See More
3 hours ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress Then i don't support such rules that curb dissent.
3 hours ago · Like

Ajita Kamal You don't agree with democracy?
3 hours ago · Like

Ajita Kamal There is a difference between legitimate dissent and blatant misrepresentation with intent to disrupt. After democratic discussion the members of Nirmukta have over time narrowed down to certain rules to manage the group. This was a democratic process. It has nothing to do with curbing dissenting opinions. It has everything to do making sure that the purpose of the group is not hijacked by those only interested in confrontation.
3 hours ago · Like · 1 person

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?//1. he made derogatory remarks against atheists on Nirmukta who were ex-Muslims, and claimed that they aren't really atheists.//

We claim moderate muslims aren't real muslims all day. We deliberately offend MO's followers and Have Draw Mohd days. We must be stopped ?

//2. he used derogatory remarks against Muslims in general. We at Nirmukta do not promote bigotry. We criticise all religions, including Islam, but never attack people in general, be it Hindu or Muslim or whatever. We do, of course, criticise individuals such as the Pope or Puttaparty Sai Baba. //

Agree. But this itself doesn't warrant a ban. Perhaps a warning.

//3. he promoted Hindu woo, and sounds like a Hindu nationalist (even if he is an atheist. Remember, Veer Savarkar and Narendra Modi are self confessed atheists). //

There are 1000 types of atheists. Does this group belong to only one kinds ?

//4. it's a fake profile. That is clearly not his name. //

I am also a fake profile. Point is on FB we are talking to comments and not the commentator. There is no way one can check if one is a fake profile or not. And anyways one can always re-enter with different profile. So banning doesn't help.

//5. this does not constitute a violation of the freedom of speech. He is free to say whatever he wants online. He is just not welcome to say it in our group and disrupt our conversations.//

Means I cannot go to Islam group and talk about flaws in Islam ?

//6. hence, this is not about a difference in opinion. Many in the community have varied opinions about stuff. //

If we can't engage with idiots, it's our fault. Showcasing of moral superiority is first flaw. Atheists can't be moral absolutists. That's what religion does.

[ I am in no way advocating XYZ's return, neither do i know him. Nor is my intention to demean or demoralise the admins. I just wanted to make some points to ponder for the intelligensia and i am done]
3 hours ago · Like

Siddharth Singh I'm sorry, but you must be unaware of what this group is about. This is freethinker meetup group. Lack of belief in god is a necessary, but not sufficient condition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freethought This group is mainly used to organise meetups of real people in Delhi. Many here know each other personally.
3 hours ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Ajita Kamal :

//There is a difference between legitimate dissent and blatant misrepresentation with intent to disrupt.//

Reminds me of sedition charge against Arundhati. Also reminds me of Volitaire. smile
...See More
3 hours ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?//I'm sorry, but you must be unaware of what this group is about. This is freethinker meetup group//

PLease look at your point no 1 again Siddharth Singh. smile
3 hours ago · Like

Ajita Kamal ?"Reminds me of sedition charge against Arundhati. Also reminds me of Volitaire. smile"
False equivalence. You are confusing between freedom of speech and the right to demand a platform for your speech.

Sedition charges against Arundathi, whether you agree with what she said or not, were an attempt to block her free speech. Arundathi, Charvak or you have the right to speech. You just dont have the right to any platform that you demand.
As for Voltaire, you're thinking of a misappropriated quote.
3 hours ago · Like

Siddharth Singh ?"1. he made derogatory remarks against atheists on Nirmukta who were ex-Muslims, and claimed that they aren't really atheists. "

Yes, and I don't see how this has anything to do with anything else. Charvak was a member of several Nirmukta groups, and was disrupting conversations everywhere.
3 hours ago · Like · 2 people

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Ajita Kamal

//You are confusing between freedom of speech and the right to demand a platform for your speech.//

This is not an open group right ? Somebody invited him to the platform. [I don't know what transpired, and that is not my concern. My concern is the group. Not him]

I may not like what AR or Voltaire or Bharti or you speak.
But i will support to death your right to say it.
2 hours ago · Like

Ekthi Ektha i agree with Rajesh & disagree with Siddharth & Ajita. criticism only helps one in fine tuning one's view point/opinion, banning/blocking reflects one's intellectual unpreparedness. let there be freethought!
2 hours ago · Like · 2 people

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress Yes, let there be freethought. It could be disturbing. Very disturbing. But that's how order arises. Only through chaos.

Thanks @ekthi
2 hours ago · Like · 1 person

Sunil D'Monte Rajesh, Ekthi and anyone else who agrees with them - have you read the post on trolling above? What points of that don't you agree with?
2 hours ago · Like · 3 people

Sunil D'Monte And, please read the definition of freethought. It does not mean what you seem to think it means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freethought
2 hours ago · Like · 1 person

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?@sunil : No i haven't and i am not interested. I have said in OP above, if he used direct expletives i am with you all. I don't know what else construes an abuse.
2 hours ago · Like

Sunil D'Monte You're not interested? You have seen the name of this group, right?
2 hours ago · Like · 1 person

Ajita Kamal ?@Ekthi: No one is talking about criticism or dissent. That is a straw man in this conversation. Please read the entire conversation. We are talking about trolls whose only intent it is to disrupt the group. The members of Nirmukta have been involved in building this community for over 2 years, and we have implemented a democratic process. This is not the first time this discussion has come up, and the arguments on all sides are well decumented. No one is talking about banning people for contradictory opinions.
2 hours ago · Like · 2 people

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?@sunil : Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint that holds that opinions should be formed on the basis of science, logic, and reason, and should not be influenced by authority, tradition, or dogma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freethought

Not influenced by authority , right ?
2 hours ago · Like

Sajith Unni ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress might be good idea to read that link on what freethought is.
2 hours ago · Like · 1 person
#4
Siddharth Singh See, people keep thinking this is about curbing the freedom of speech. It is not. You, Arundhati, or Baba Ramdev are all free to practice free speech, but not in my bedroom while I try to sleep. I will defend Charvak's right to speech, but not on this platform if it is disrupting our organisation.

This isn't about deleting criticism. We have been debating and discussing around the web for long. But this group is primarily being used to organise meets and activities in general.

Also, I think it is rather sad that you criticise us, and then don't read our defence (the article that I linked above which Sunil is talking about).
2 hours ago · Like · 3 people

Sunil D'Monte Rajesh - right. See democratic process, above.
2 hours ago · Like · 1 person

Ajita Kamal The viewpoints should not be influenced by authority. The group is managed through mutually beneficial management- that is democracy.
2 hours ago · Like · 1 person

Sunil D'Monte Rajesh, Ekthi et al - I repeat my request above. Read the post about trolling. On reflection I think you will actually agree with it. But you have to read it to find out what it says.
2 hours ago · Like · 3 people

Siddharth Singh Here is the link, again: http://nirmukta.com/2010/09/08/trolls-an...ht-groups/
2 hours ago · Unlike · 2 people

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress It a long piece Siddharth Singh. Will go through it and post my objections (if any) later.
2 hours ago · Like · 3 people

Sunil D'Monte For what it's worth - I am not an admin here, and a year or two ago I would have made the same calls for free speech and not banning members. But that post made me understand - and appreciate - the job that the admins are doing. We have a t...See More
2 hours ago · Like · 1 person

Sajith Unni ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress before reading it you have made up your mind to post objections? Come on Rajesh does that sound reasonable?
2 hours ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Sajith Unni : Perhaps you forgot to read in brackets. (If any)
smile
2 hours ago · Like

Sajith Unni ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress my bad smile
2 hours ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress No problem smile
2 hours ago · Like · 1 person

Tiwari Adtnu Hi I do support free thought so do blasphemy because freedom of speech covers it...hence let them have their chance to bring their point..we can take them on home ground..even Prof .Richard Dawkins puts silly and stupid remarks made by very...See More
2 hours ago · Like

Sunil D'Monte Please please pleeeeeeeeeeeease read the post on trolling everybody. smile The points you are raising *have been addressed there*.
2 hours ago · Like · 3 people
Lalit Mohan Chawla There is some confusion among the general public on the distinction between the concept of free-speech and the conditional limitations on its practice.
The common understanding about freedom of speech in a democracy is that all its forms should be protected unless physical harm is implied (with a few exceptions, such as for cases involving minors and sexually explicit material). This sort of freedom of speech is considered a fundamental right of all citizens. Most freethinkers respect such rights, and some may even think of them as the foundations of a free society. However, the right to free-speech is conditional on other fundamental rights, such as the right to owning property.
Here are some examples of this distinction: You may be free to write what you want to, but you may not use my pencil or keyboard to write it unless I permit you to do so. You may be free to talk about the importance of religion, but you may not expect to air your views on the BBC, unless they want you to. You may be free to sing Church songs all day long, but you may not barge into my living room and unleash your oh-so-blessed hymns on me.
2 hours ago · Like · 4 people

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Lalit Mohan Chawla : You are tempting me to comment even before i finished reading what sid posted.

//However, the right to free-speech is conditional on other fundamental rights, such as the right to owning property.//

In US it is a fundamental right. In India it is not. Thanks to Indira Gandhi. Right to own property must be fundamental right, without which freedom of speech has no meaning.

//You may be free to write what you want to, but you may not use my pencil or keyboard to write it unless I permit you to do so.//

I said above and saying it again too. This group is a closed group, which means someone , some freethinker invited him to the group. Now if you invite someone to use your pencil ?
2 hours ago · Like

Siddharth Singh No, Rajesh. He was not "invited". He "requested" to be accepted, and some admin must have "approved" it. We only found out of his repeated ad hominem attacks and all that after he was accepted and he started commenting.
2 hours ago · Like · 2 people
Lalit Mohan Chawla ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress i had not tagged you in the post , it was general so you may have continued , but since you tag me , i am obliged to reply facebook is different from orkut such that there are very few fake profiles and almo...See More
2 hours ago · Like

Siddharth Singh Also, even if he was invited, it wouldn't mean anything. If I gave my pencil to someone, and he started writing "F**K Jews", then I would have my right to ask my pencil back.
2 hours ago · Like · 1 person

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress Point taken Siddharth Singh. So lesson we learn is ?

That profile of person must be checked before any admin approves it ?
2 hours ago · Unlike · 1 person

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Siddharth Singh : Did he use expletives like f**k jews etc ?
2 hours ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Lalit Mohan Chawla : It does not matter how good a detective admin is. LoL
2 hours ago · Like
Lalit Mohan Chawla ?*was convinced and went for final
2 hours ago · Like
Lalit Mohan Chawla still i think that a simple glance at profile before addition will help , we are all skeptics here we do have a "thing" for such stuff
2 hours ago · Like · 1 person

Siddharth Singh No that was just an example to illustrate a point. But yes, he did personally attack members of the community.

And yes, the profiles much be checked. But sometimes, a person's profile may look alright, but he/she may later begin to disrupt activities, by either swearing, or trolling (as defined in the article linked above). In that case, we refer to our general guidelines of moderation (not for curbing critical comments, but genuine disruptions. After all, you have been critical of us too. But you have not used ad hominem attacks and have been cordial).
2 hours ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Siddharth Singh : What construes a troll ?

//“A troll can be anyone who aims to disturb communication or ruin someone’s mood or experience while online.”//

This ?
...See More
2 hours ago · Like

Satish Chandra I agree with the points Siddharth and Sunil raise. But it can be very hard to see where they are coming from unless you personally have a discussion with a troll. Trolls do not want to have a two way dialog. They just post flamebait material and watch in fun as other members of the community go back and forth on that flame, wasting their time.

So I propose, the next time this group gets a troll, let the admins announce that the person is exhibiting trollish behavior to people who do not want any moderation of the sort under discussion here. And those people can engage the troll in a dialog and see for themselves how trolls disrupt communities.
2 hours ago · Like · 1 person

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Satish Chandra : Once a troll is identified, he better be snubbed with rational argument or mocked or simply ignored.

I don't think people who engage in debates day in day out don't know what is troll.
about an hour ago · Like

Ajita Kamal Rajesh, do you think there is any situation where someone can be removed from a group?
about an hour ago · Like
Lalit Mohan Chawla ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress draw a muhd day postings are definitey troll if you go and post them on an "i am proud to be a muslim" group
about an hour ago · Like

Satish Chandra ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress, do try to have discussion with a troll the next time. You will see that no amount of reason will snub them.
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Ajita Kamal : Perhaps direct use of expletives.
about an hour ago · Like
Lalit Mohan Chawla motivation of troll is simple pleasure derived from name calling and irritating members why do you think that reasoning with them will help?
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Satish Chandra : //do try to have discussion with a troll the next time. You will see that no amount of reason will snub them.//

Assuming that i don't ? :-)

Guru gobind Singh - "If all modes of redressing a wrong having failed raising of sword is pious and just."

Agree ? (Think of sword as metaphor for banning)

smile
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Lalit Mohan Chawla : //draw a muhd day postings are definitey troll if you go and post them on an "i am proud to be a muslim" group//

So majority means they are right ?
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Lalit Mohan Chawla : //motivation of troll is simple pleasure derived from name calling and irritating members why do you think that reasoning with them will help?//

#5
Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Satish Chandra : //do try to have discussion with a troll the next time. You will see that no amount of reason will snub them.//

Assuming that i don't ? :-)

Guru gobind Singh - "If all modes of redressing a wrong having failed raising of sword is pious and just."

Agree ? (Think of sword as metaphor for banning)

smile
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Lalit Mohan Chawla : //draw a muhd day postings are definitey troll if you go and post them on an "i am proud to be a muslim" group//

So majority means they are right ?
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Lalit Mohan Chawla : //motivation of troll is simple pleasure derived from name calling and irritating members why do you think that reasoning with them will help?//

Freedom of speech comes in package deal with right to offend. But one's right to raise his fist in the air stops where my nose begins.

He irritates me. I get irritated. He wins.
He irritates me. I stay calm. I win.
He tries to irritate me. I stay indifferent. I win.

The question is on our patience, not how much they can irritate us.
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person

Ajita Kamal ?" Perhaps direct use of expletives."
That is not a sufficient reason for banning someone. I think that is a restriction on free speech. Ad hominems and personal attacks are a diferent sotry.
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Ajita Kamal //Rajesh, do you think there is any situation where someone can be removed from a group?//

And direct threat to life and property.
about an hour ago · Like

Ajita Kamal So you do think there are certain situations when a person can be removed. Who decides these situations? You?
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Ajita Kamal : //Who decides these situations? You?//

Ad hominem ?
about an hour ago · Like

Ajita Kamal No
about an hour ago · Like

Ajita Kamal I asked you a question.
about an hour ago · Like
Lalit Mohan Chawla ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress the definitions of troll are well established with rise of forums there have been many suggestions many different trial-and errors with time general rules of forums have been developed and it is accepted by all forums that focus on quality discussiosn(over number of members) rather than commertialisation of forums that trolls will not be tolerated you may have your ideas of what may cause a ban but what is important are ideas that have come to be respected by forums worldwide
about an hour ago · Like

Ajita Kamal We believe that these decisions must be made using a democratic process. You seem to think that some situations require moderation. I'm asking you who will decide if not through a democratic process? Are you saying that the democratic process should be trumped by your preferences?
about an hour ago · Like

Satish Chandra I too don't find use of expletives grounds enough for banning. I don't mind the occasional ad-hominem either. But the other person should be willing to have a dialog.
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Ajita Kamal ://Who decides these situations? You?//

No. Why would i ?
about an hour ago · Like

Tiwari Adtnu is it possible to see the comments he made???
about an hour ago · Like

Ajita Kamal Then who should? Or how should such decisions be taken? Because you say there are situations that will require moderation. If not through a democratic process, then how?
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Ajita Kamal ://We believe that these decisions must be made using a democratic process. You seem to think that some situations require moderation. I'm asking you who will decide if not through a democratic process? Are you saying that the democratic process should be trumped by your preferences?//

What democratic process was adopted in banning XYZ ?
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person

Satish Chandra ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress So every admin action needs a poll?
about an hour ago · Like

Ajita Kamal We have already posted it above..please scroll up and read.
You are yet to answer the question. Do you agree that a democratic process must be followed? Would you be willing to participate in such a process? Or are you only interested in stating your opposition and not in constructive growth?
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Tiwari Adtnu :// is it possible to see the comments he made???//

Even i am tempted now to ask that question, seeing the defense. For all you know, i might agree with admins. smile
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person

Ajita Kamal Im waiting for the answer.
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Satish Chandra : //So every admin action needs a poll?//

First thing first. Are admins democratically elected ?
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Ajita Kamal : Sorry, if i missed the question. Can you please repost ?
about an hour ago · Like

Ajita Kamal ?"First thing first. Are admins democratically elected ?"

Rajesh, what have you done for Nirmukta to ask that question?
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Ajita Kamal :

//Do you agree that a democratic process must be followed?//

yes.
// Would you be willing to participate in such a process? //
Yes

//Or are you only interested in stating your opposition and not in constructive growth?//

Opposition is valuable part of constructive growth in democracy. Is it not ? smile
about an hour ago · Like

Ajita Kamal The admins have put in hundreds of hours of their life to build up a national organization with many regional groups and websites.
about an hour ago · Like

Tiwari Adtnu Mr Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress I am open to agree with them too....smile My rationalism comes with tolerance. Other wise whats the difference between rationalist and fanatics?
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person

Tiwari Adtnu I think now its getting personal...
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?//Rajesh, what have you done for Nirmukta to ask that question?//

Bad argument. I resign.
This charters a new territory.
You own the group. Autocracy wins. Ciao

Btw , i don't have to vote to be an Indian citizen or to file an RTI.
about an hour ago · Like

Ajita Kamal ?"Opposition is valuable part of constructive growth in democracy. Is it not ?"
Yes, but if there is a group that is already functional and has been working together for more than 2 years, and they are establishing themselves as a presence, should not new members attempt to first work with the admins instead of asserting that they are wrong?
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress No more discussion with you Ajita Kamal on this issue.
about an hour ago · Like

Ajita Kamal ?"//Rajesh, what have you done for Nirmukta to ask that question?//

Bad argument. I resign.
This charters a new territory.
You own the group. Autocracy wins. Ciao"

It is a legitimate argument. This is a non-profit organization and we have literally put in a lot of time and effort into organizing ourselves. You are here because of the work that many members have put in. This is not an autocracy, as is evidenced by the polite conversation we have had despite your slanderous and false accusations here. I have repeatedly asked you to participate in the process. There is a way to do it. We can include you in the process, and we can mutually progress towards common goals. Or we can oppose every single thing that's being said.
about an hour ago · Like · 2 people

Sunil D'Monte ?> You own the group. Autocracy wins. Ciao

Rajesh this is a blatant strawman. I'm guessing you're just lashing out now without thinking. Take a break and think things over.
about an hour ago · Like · 3 people
#6
Ajita Kamal Rajesh, are you or are you not in support of the agenda of Nirmukta?
about an hour ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?@Sunil : //Rajesh this is a blatant strawman. I'm guessing you're just lashing out now without thinking. Take a break and think things over.//

I resigned because i don't reply to personal attacks. I know where to draw the line.
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person

Sunil D'Monte Personal attack... where?
about an hour ago · Like

Ajita Kamal I think he means this "You own the group. Autocracy wins." I concur.
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person

Ajita Kamal ?Rajesh, you said you resign. Does that mean you're leaving the group?
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress I said no more discussion on this issue, means just this issue... smile
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person

Satish Chandra ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpresss, A crude analogy and a question to you - because India is a democracy, should Bhutan have the entitlement to ask what is the basis of Indian constitution?
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person

Sajith Unni ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress but you continue discussing it. Why don't you cease to do so. How is this even helping Nirmukta?
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person

Tiwari Adtnu I am curious is it about Nirmukta or is it about the idea of free thought??
about an hour ago · Like

Sajith Unni ?Tiwari Adtnu This a Nirmukta group, I am sure you noticed that.
about an hour ago · Like

Sunil D'Monte Rajesh in response to your question about admins being democratically elected - it's explained in the trolling post:

"There may be hierarchical elements in a hetearchy, but the group exercises power through a participation-merit system. Thus the system maintains fairness while being effective in achieving its goals. In such a system, the rules of engagement are agreed upon through mutual agreement, weighted by degree of participation in the group."
about an hour ago · Like

Tiwari Adtnu I thought the idea of the group or Nirmukta is also to promote freethinking in free manner...
about an hour ago · Like

Ajita Kamal Tiwari, firstly its not "free" "thought" but freethought. There's a difference. Freethought is a well-defined term, and we're passionate about promoting it.
But we're an organization. Even the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Science and Reason have rules of conduct on their website, and they wil delete comments or kick people out. That doesn't mean they have to choose between atheism and their organization.
Freethought or Nirmukta is a false dichtomy.
Secondly, the objectives of Nirmukta are here: http://nirmukta.com/what-is-nirmukta-and...lan-to-do/
Please read carefully. Thank you.
about an hour ago · Like · 2 people

Sajith Unni ?Tiwari Adtnu if you don't read the conversation fully which also includes a link which explains what freethought is you will start making assumptions as you are doing. Please read.
about an hour ago · Like · 1 person

Tiwari Adtnu well u have my support in the cause....however a strong disagreement in "banning" action...
49 minutes ago · Like

Ajita Kamal Tiwari, is there any situation where you think banning is appropriate?
48 minutes ago · Like

Sajith Unni ?Tiwari Adtnu trolls will be banned as in any group.
48 minutes ago · Like

Ajita Kamal Let me repeat, Tiwari Adtnu, do you think there is any situation where banning is appropriate?
47 minutes ago · Like

Tiwari Adtnu if it doesnt harm me or anyone I dont see a reason of banning...
45 minutes ago · Like

Ajita Kamal That doesn't answer my question. Please answer what I asked! Thank you.
45 minutes ago · Like

Ajita Kamal OK, so you have a certain opinion. Now other members of the group have other opinions. How should we decide what to do as a gruop?
43 minutes ago · Like

Tiwari Adtnu well the answer is only if it harms ... like murder should be ban but not lets say.. religion ....religion should be overcome but by consciousness and not by force...
43 minutes ago · Like

Ajita Kamal That is your opinion on moderation. Others have other opinions. How can we decide what the group moderation policies should be?
42 minutes ago · Like

Tiwari Adtnu Mr Ajit I am not a person who likes to draw lines for others...however group should not be controlled it should be free to behave the way it likes...its my opnion only...
41 minutes ago · Like

Sajith Unni I think trolls and disruptive people should be banned. It does not serve the group one bit.
41 minutes ago · Like · 1 person

Ajita Kamal ?@Tiwari: I'm not asking about your opinion now. I'm asking about group policy. How can a group come together and decide group policy?
39 minutes ago · Like · 1 person

Sunil D'Monte ?> group should not be controlled it should be free to behave the way it likes.

Tiwari are you a member of any such online freethought group where there is no moderation? What is it like? And how successful is that group in achieving its goals?
39 minutes ago · Like · 1 person

Tiwari Adtnu Mr Sunil this is my first group ever...however I do not see a point of moderation like I said unless it harms some one....
37 minutes ago · Like

Sajith Unni ?Tiwari Adtnu It is the duty of the moderator to manage the day-to-day affairs of a forum or board as it applies to the stream of user contributions and interactions. The relative effectiveness of this user management directly impacts the quality of a forum in general, its appeal, and its usefulness as a community of interrelated users.
36 minutes ago · Like · 2 people

Ajita Kamal Again, you see a line. You say "however I do see a point of moderation". The problem is that this is your opinion. But we are a community. Individual opinion cannot be used to make group policy, right? So how can we work together?
36 minutes ago · Like

Tiwari Adtnu Mr Sajith Is it possible to get those comments out in forum...???
34 minutes ago · Like

Tiwari Adtnu Or the group???
34 minutes ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Tiwari Adtnu : Sajith Unni is not the admin. Perhaps you are asking to wrong person. smile
33 minutes ago · Like

Sajith Unni ?Tiwari Adtnu sorry I don't understand your question.
32 minutes ago · Like
Lalit Mohan Chawla ?Tiwari Adtnu you mean comments by charvaka?
32 minutes ago · Like

Tiwari Adtnu well I must ask than does moderator has absolute authority?
31 minutes ago · Like

Tiwari Adtnu Yes Mr Lalit Mohan Chawla
31 minutes ago · Like

Ajita Kamal No one has absolute authority here, as would be obvious if you read the links posted multiple times. The reason I've been asking you how a group could decide policy, is to know if you're interested in putting in the time to organize the mov...See More
29 minutes ago · Like · 1 person

Sajith Unni ?Tiwari Adtnu thats the way online groups function. The mods have the option to kick anyone out for disruptive behavior.
28 minutes ago · Like

Tiwari Adtnu well I understand the authority mod has in online group but I thought we were discussing it principally.
27 minutes ago · Like
Lalit Mohan Chawla i did not copy paste them and they were removed while i was offline but i already said i did warn him and he was convinced that he will be removed they were something like "ajita, you see only whings in black and white ...this irrational a...See More
27 minutes ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress Can this discussion be stopped now ?
27 minutes ago · Like · 1 person

Sajith Unni ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress LOL I thought you had ceased commenting, but you are back?
26 minutes ago · Like

Ajita Kamal Lalit, the other thing is that there was a pattern of disruption, not just one conversation.
25 minutes ago · Like

Tiwari Adtnu okay I had some good conversation but I am off now..thanks all for participating...
24 minutes ago · Like

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Sajith Unni : I am not like a rule. I change my mind often. hope that's not an issue with you smile
23 minutes ago · Like · 1 person

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress Asking Admins .... Am i allowed to put a concluding note here ?
21 minutes ago · Like

Sajith Unni ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress I can see that you cant make up your mind because you ask for the discussion to stop and then keep coming back. If you want to have to have the last word its fine with me.
20 minutes ago · Like · 1 person

Ajita Kamal RDT, for goodness sakes man, you are allowed to write whatever you want as long as it conforms to the guidelines that have been agreed upon by the members of Nirmukta!!
20 minutes ago · Like · 1 person

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress LOL.... You aint admin Sajith Unni. I checked. smile
20 minutes ago · Like

Sajith Unni ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress I never claimed that at all.
19 minutes ago · Like

Ajita Kamal Maybe not here, but Sajith is admin on the national group with 1500 members, and he's a valueble member of Nirmutka who has spent many hours debunking religious arguments and pseudoscience alongside us.
19 minutes ago · Like · 1 person
#7
Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Ajita Kamal : I meant the concluding one be allowed to me...Is that okay ?
19 minutes ago · Like

Ajita Kamal That I cannot guarantee- in fact, its a little anti-free speech, if you ask me- requesting others to not speak?? hmmm.
18 minutes ago · Like · 1 person

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ?Ajita Kamal : I said that to Sajith Unni because , i asked a question only to admins of this group.
17 minutes ago · Like

Sajith Unni ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress ok I think you are now being needlessly facetious. Its wholly unnecessary and not in the interests of the group.
17 minutes ago · Like · 1 person

Ajita Kamal RDT, are you interested in joining us in discussion about the group? I'll add you to our list and you can participate and share all your ideas there with us.
16 minutes ago · Like · 1 person

Sajith Unni ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress I was answering your question where you mentioned me. // Sajith Unni : I am not like a rule. I change my mind often. hope that's not an issue with you smile//
15 minutes ago · Like · 1 person
Lalit Mohan Chawla ?Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress Tiwari Adtnu
there are 3 points here
1)why was charvaka banned - tiwari and rajesh you did not read his comments and did not witness his disruption so you should not be discussing that
2)was there democracy in deciding admins ? yes all admins were decided by voting before you joined
2)why moderate?- had you been a part of discussion forums you would know how hard it becomes to be a part of unmoderated groups and now i can see this discussion needs moderation , i will now remove this post and urge you not to initiate it again why? because whether or not moderation should be there and whether trolling should be accepeted will be discussed soon but not here as facebook generates a lot of noise the forum provide a much better platform with option to edit your typos quote and the discussion will be archived unlike facebook where it dissolves into flooding comments , you will be invited to that discussion and your points will be considered while making decision THAT is democracy you have now 5 minutes to post your concluding comments
12 minutes ago · Like · 4 people

Tiwari Adtnu Mr Lalit I sense strong authority in it and hence I protest by leaving the group...
7 minutes ago · Like

Sajith Unni Goodbye.
5 minutes ago · Like · 1 person
Lalit Mohan Chawla in any case i will keep my promise , you will be invited to that discussion and your points will be considered while making decision smile
5 minutes ago · Like · 3 people

Ajita Kamal Lalit, your post was measured, gave opportunity for people to respond and was just providing another forum after carefully explaining why this forum is not the appropriate place. Unfortunately some people are not interested in any type of mutual arrangement.
5 minutes ago · Like · 2 people
#8
after waiting for ten minutes post was removed after which rajesh reposted

Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress
Ajita Kamal : //That I cannot guarantee- in fact, its a little anti-free speech, if you ask me- requesting others to not speak?? hmmm.//

Thanks. I expected.
I take back my comment "Autocracy" etc.
Never intended to defame this group or admins. I said this earlier too.
And my objection was an objection to rules, not to admins.
I know the good work Nirmukta does and most of admins here have been in my list for years now. And i know that they stand for rationalism/Atheism/Freethought.

But still i am against banning even if it is majorly accepted by all freethought communities, because majority does not always mean they are right, atleast in my opinion but since as you said it has been negotiated moral clause, member have to be binding to it.

And i am not begging for an explaination on why XYZ was removed. Whatever admins did must have been within the ambit of rules that they follow with consensus.

My opinion, well is my opinion and i posted in OP. It's upto admins to discuss among themselves and decide whether rules need change or not. If they don't , then well they just don't.

My opinion still remains, and will.

Ahh, and i am against deleting posts as well just because they unnerve the admins. Just want to bring to your notice that , no democracy was exhibited in deleting my last two posts. I wasn't informed.
18 minutes ago · Like · · Subscribe
Ajita Kamal Rajesh, Lalit clearly mentioned the reasons for why he was moving the thread to the forums, and that this conversations can be continued there. He also requested us to please refrain from posting on this topic here, and to continue on the forums. He gave us time to finish. This post by you is important and essential, but I hope you understand why it is being moved to the forums. Let us please stick to discussing freethought and rationalism here. Thanks!
#9
//all deleted discussions will be posted here introducing with date of removal and reason for the same
//

I dont' see the reason posted here !


#10
rajesh, i repeat[/align]
this is just for deleted posts and members are requested to engage in discussion my making a separate thread or posting in appropriate threads which are very well categorized in the forum
#11
(07-Jun-2011, 01:37 AM)lalitmohanchawla Wrote: rajesh, i repeat[/align]
this is just for deleted posts and members are requested to engage in discussion my making a separate thread or posting in appropriate threads which are very well categorized in the forum

I noticed I am a Nirmukt noobie. smile
As an admin would you help forming a separate thread for this discussion and point me to link of that place ?
#12
(07-Jun-2011, 01:50 AM)Rajesh Dudeja Thebrandexpress Wrote:
(07-Jun-2011, 01:37 AM)lalitmohanchawla Wrote: rajesh, i repeat[/align]
this is just for deleted posts and members are requested to engage in discussion my making a separate thread or posting in appropriate threads which are very well categorized in the forum

I noticed I am a Nirmukt noobie. smile
As an admin would you help forming a separate thread for this discussion and point me to link of that place ?

Split a new thread here.

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