moderation open thread
(01-Dec-2013, 12:22 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote:
(30-Nov-2013, 11:07 PM)dsouzatroy Wrote: I can do it.... But I can't access the IADC page to send the join request...I get an error msg "Sorry, this page isn't available."

Can you try again? I have removed your ban from the group, but I am still not able to tag you. So most likely now you should be able to send a join request.

Regards
Kanad

Hey tnx for letting me in....Appreciate it...smile)
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To The Moderators

Recently I was banned from both the Indian Atheist Debate corner group and the Nirmukta group for undisclosed reasons.Neither was I informed about the ban nor was I issued any sort of warning.As far as I can recollect I didnt violate any of the prescribed rules.Neither did I hurl any abuse on anyone nor did I resort to any personal attack or slur.I would like to know the reason for my ban which includes substantive evidence.I do accept that I was a bit inactive in these groups for One month or so.I dnt think this can be a reason for the ban.
So I would like to request the moderators to look into the matter and keep me posted.If I am found innocent please do reinstate me in both the groups.I am missing a lot of intellectual discussions
My facebook account link is below:
https://www.facebook.com/nishantkr19

NISHANT KUMAR
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Hi

I used to be a regular follower of the Nirmukta (main) facebook group, but suddenly it seems to have vanished completely. Any info on what happened? Was I removed and the group hidden from me? username is milind.ravindranath.

I have an observation to make : the material written here seems to be targeted at readers who are already old members. This is evident by the tone of the text which indicate, for example, how "obvious" a particular thing's religious intolerance/hate/apologist undertones are. They are not. Most of the time I am left both wondering at what logic led there, and annoyed at how that seems to be the only conclusion drawn, even though the source supports a whole range of conclusions.

So who is supposed to read this and actually understand and assimilate? Only long-time group members?

Another thing : I know about (and have seen in action) the "reverse chilly climate" policy, which, to eliminate possible "chilly climate" conditions for non-majority sections, results in instant removal of material deemed racist/casteist/religious, sometimes followed by banning. I would like to know if there exists a separate section where there is less strict and _instant_ enforcement of the rules, so that full discussion of some ideas may take place. I am not currently comfortable with the possibility of being cut off and told to shut up while engaging in focused calm debate.

(I'm not sure I won't be told to shut up for the above. Is that the intention?)

Looking forward to a response.
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NOTE: Merged the original thread with this thread. In future kindly posts such queries in this thread.

(18-Apr-2014, 06:33 AM)milindsmart Wrote: Hi

I used to be a regular follower of the Nirmukta (main) facebook group, but suddenly it seems to have vanished completely. Any info on what happened? Was I removed and the group hidden from me? username is milind.ravindranath.

Yes you were removed from the group.

(18-Apr-2014, 06:33 AM)milindsmart Wrote: I have an observation to make : the material written here seems to be targeted at readers who are already old members. This is evident by the tone of the text which indicate, for example, how "obvious" a particular thing's religious intolerance/hate/apologist undertones are. They are not. Most of the time I am left both wondering at what logic led there, and annoyed at how that seems to be the only conclusion drawn, even though the source supports a whole range of conclusions.

So who is supposed to read this and actually understand and assimilate? Only long-time group members?

First and foremost, is this a sincere post? As in something that is genuinely trying to understand, or this is a classic troll tantrum that follows a removal? The reason I mention this is because the thread is for the questions of first type and not for the other type. And your post has the typical tone that is characteristic of latter.

So coming to your question, Nirmukta FB groups are safe spaces for freethinkers. Which means a member should at the least be familiar with basic Humanism, skepticism, atheism and scientific temper.

About how things are not obvious, your arguments from FB show either ignorance or deliberate indifference to basic Humanism. For example your comment
Quote:None of these encourage violence against living persons
for an FB page which had text like "we encourage men to learn self defense and beat women whenever you feel like they have disrespected us and show them their place just like this proud young man did".

Now if this is not "obvious" to you, then you need to revisit your thinking, read more literature and then come back to the groups. Because we think that this is ultra obvious to any humanist.

Quote:Another thing : I know about (and have seen in action) the "reverse chilly climate" policy, which, to eliminate possible "chilly climate" conditions for non-majority sections, results in instant removal of material deemed racist/casteist/religious, sometimes followed by banning. I would like to know if there exists a separate section where there is less strict and _instant_ enforcement of the rules, so that full discussion of some ideas may take place. I am not currently comfortable with the possibility of being cut off and told to shut up while engaging in focused calm debate.

Repeating myself. Nirmukta is a safe space for freethinkers. Which means we have zero tolerance for bigotry, casteism, racism, misogyny, rape apologia, etc. etc. Read about this more here

We enforce this in all our groups as we consider this as a basic requirement to have any meaningful discussion on freethought without seriously degrading the quality of the group. So no, there is no group that is less strict.

Quote:(I'm not sure I won't be told to shut up for the above. Is that the intention?)

Looking forward to a response.

In future no need for flame baits. They won't be tolerated.
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(25-Apr-2014, 09:54 PM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: NOTE: Merged the original thread with this thread. In future kindly posts such queries in this thread.

(18-Apr-2014, 06:33 AM)milindsmart Wrote: Hi

I used to be a regular follower of the Nirmukta (main) facebook group, [...] milind.ravindranath.

Yes you were removed from the group.

(18-Apr-2014, 06:33 AM)milindsmart Wrote: I have an observation to make [...]

So who is supposed to read this and actually understand and assimilate? Only long-time group members?

First and foremost, is this a sincere post? As in something that is genuinely trying to understand, or this is a classic troll tantrum that follows a removal? The reason I mention this is because the thread is for the questions of first type and not for the other type. And your post has the typical tone that is characteristic of latter.

I did not expect to have gotten removed at all. I thought perhaps the group was taken off to do maintenance, or that it has been removed in favour of the 4 subgroups. Because I received no information of any sort that I have been removed, I simply had to keep guessing. You'll also notice it's been about a month since I was banned, and I have tried multiple times to access it in different ways. My second paragraph has no relation with me having been removed, and you'll have to accept it's sincerity there.

If you want examples of what I was talking about, where "obvious" conclusions are not so obvious, please check a link I had shared a while ago about the applicability of left-wing and right-wing classification of INDIAN politics. Although Arvind Iyer gave a very insightful link about how such a distinction is inevitable(which I couldn't find due to non-access), I distinctly remember Satish Chandra saying "This is just another Hindu apologist. Giveaways are : ". I may be inexperienced in the forms of Hindu apologia, but I think summary dismissal of arguments merely by suspected unproven allegiance of the article author surely says something.

(25-Apr-2014, 09:54 PM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: So coming to your question, Nirmukta FB groups are safe spaces for freethinkers. [...]

I remember the post, and it's not one of those I refer to above, about "obvious" conclusions. There were a number of links, and many of them were merely stupid. You are right that this link encourages violence. IIRC, I had separated the list into 2 parts, and said one group should be reported, while another set of links are harmless and don't meet FB standards for reporting. If that is not what happened (which I cannot verify due to non-access), then I am sorry for making the statement. I shall be careful in future about excusing hate-speech, if I am admitted back into the group (which I hope I am).

(25-Apr-2014, 09:54 PM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: [...]

Repeating myself. Nirmukta is a safe space for freethinkers. [...]
So no, there is no group that is less strict.

Ok. In this case, IMO there are some (perhaps) important and relevant facts that people (including me) will desist from mentioning in the group. JFYI.

(25-Apr-2014, 09:54 PM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: In future no need for flame baits. They won't be tolerated.

Not the intention. I'm saying that's the level of trepidation when I (and I suspect, others) ask about non-standard queries. Trepidation that would not exist if I didn't care about adhering to the rules.

Please let me know what happens next regarding my membership in the FB group.
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(29-Apr-2014, 11:16 AM)milindsmart Wrote: If you want examples of what I was talking about, where "obvious" conclusions are not so obvious, please check a link I had shared a while ago about the applicability of left-wing and right-wing classification of INDIAN politics. Although Arvind Iyer gave a very insightful link about how such a distinction is inevitable(which I couldn't find due to non-access), I distinctly remember Satish Chandra saying "This is just another Hindu apologist. Giveaways are : ". I may be inexperienced in the forms of Hindu apologia, but I think summary dismissal of arguments merely by suspected unproven allegiance of the article author surely says something.

I vaguely recall that thread and I clearly remember thinking that your posts were full of Hindu apologia and Satish was bang on. Nirmukta admins have been doing their jobs for quite some time and they are extremely well adept at screening out apologia and other non-negotiables. And since Nirmukta is a safe space the screening has to be very proactive rather than reactive. So I completely disagree with your implication that "your arguments were dismissed perfunctorily". This allegations sound exactly like those religious people who accuse the admins for "not understanding their rationale for theism".

Your various posts have had the undercurrent of "free thinking" (kindly note the space). I can cite another comment from you on that thread
Quote:and Nirmukta "spreads hate" against religions the same way these groups do
Now there is such an irrational amount of false equivalence in that sentence that it is obvious to wonder if you were fit for the group at all.

(29-Apr-2014, 11:16 AM)milindsmart Wrote: Ok. In this case, IMO there are some (perhaps) important and relevant facts that people (including me) will desist from mentioning in the group. JFYI.

And you still want to be part of the groups? If you think that Nirmukta members and admins discard "facts", then why should you even bother being part of such groups?

Such statements are made always assuming that "admins don't know what they are doing". A freethinker forum wouldn't be a freethinker's forum if facts are not entertained. Nirmukta non-negotiables are based on extreme basics of social justice and Humanism. So no a member is NEVER discouraged to present facts. But showing privilege denial, uttering bigoted sentences and other such things are what are non-negotiables.

So even before we think about letting you in the group, you should think whether you are fit for the group. We do not expect obedience for the heck of it. The reverse chilly climate is not to be followed out of "mindless discipline" but by understanding its purpose and logic. Personally I am absolutely sure that sincere queries are never discouraged.

So the next steps are for you to think over your stances, read more literature, and if you agree with Nirmukta's approach then request for a re-membership here. The admins, if they are convinced, will then discuss amongst themselves if you can be given a second chance.
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(03-May-2014, 04:11 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: I vaguely recall that thread and I clearly remember thinking that your posts were full of Hindu apologia and Satish was bang on. Nirmukta admins have been doing their jobs for quite some time and they are extremely well adept at screening out apologia and other non-negotiables. And since Nirmukta is a safe space the screening has to be very proactive rather than reactive. So I completely disagree with your implication that "your arguments were dismissed perfunctorily". This allegations sound exactly like those religious people who accuse the admins for "not understanding their rationale for theism".

Note : Here is the article in question. From Wikipedia, "Religious apologetics is the effort to show that the preferred faith is not irrational, that believing in it is not against human reason, and that in fact the religion contains values and promotes ways of life more in accord with human nature than other faiths or beliefs."

This article, in a very skeptical reading, betrays a Hindu leaning author, by his/her favourable description of the "revivalists" and unflattering description of the "externalists". I see no apologia, am I mistaken?

(03-May-2014, 04:11 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: Your various posts have had the undercurrent of "free thinking" (kindly note the space). I can cite another comment from you on that thread
Quote:and Nirmukta "spreads hate" against religions the same way these groups do
Now there is such an irrational amount of false equivalence in that sentence that it is obvious to wonder if you were fit for the group at all.

Recalling from memory, I believe it was a suitable equivalence. However, it was a long time ago, and I have been absorbing liberalism and humanism all this while. Without reference I can't actually understand the problematic statement. Can you give me READ-ONLY access to the group temporarily?

(03-May-2014, 04:11 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: And you still want to be part of the groups? If you think that Nirmukta members and admins discard "facts", then why should you even bother being part of such groups?

[...]

So the next steps are for you to think over your stances, read more literature, and if you agree with Nirmukta's approach then request for a re-membership here. The admins, if they are convinced, will then discuss amongst themselves if you can be given a second chance.

Just like one disagreement with Satish (and you) did not inspire me to leave the group and perhaps campaign against it, a few facts being discarded does not take away from Nirmukta's considerable value in promoting moral reasoning, appreciating the logic behind social justice measures, and identifying hidden and disguised religious ideas, in my view. Regardless, I do not have a specific fact in mind that was ignored on the group, I will clarify on this after the more serious matter (below) is dealt with.

I still do want to rejoin Nirmukta, but after being convinced that the ban was a consequence of my violation of the rules. The easiest way to do it is to grant me read-access, failing which, a screenshot of the offending comment with context so that I can verify whether I commented what I thought I commented.
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(08-May-2014, 05:08 PM)milindsmart Wrote: Just like one disagreement with Satish (and you) did not inspire me to leave the group and perhaps campaign against it, a few facts being discarded does not take away from Nirmukta's considerable value in promoting moral reasoning, appreciating the logic behind social justice measures, and identifying hidden and disguised religious ideas, in my view. Regardless, I do not have a specific fact in mind that was ignored on the group, I will clarify on this after the more serious matter (below) is dealt with.

This is not a matter of disagreement. Its a matter of being fit for a freethinker's group. Especially given you still hold that //Recalling from memory, I believe it was a suitable equivalence.//

(08-May-2014, 05:08 PM)milindsmart Wrote: I still do want to rejoin Nirmukta, but after being convinced that the ban was a consequence of my violation of the rules. The easiest way to do it is to grant me read-access, failing which, a screenshot of the offending comment with context so that I can verify whether I commented what I thought I commented.

Its not admins' job to convince you that you are misfit for the group! Its your job to convince the admins you are fit for the group. And there is no way to grant just read access permissions. Also note that yours wasn't a case of "ban based on bigoted statement in a single comment". It was based on your replies on multiple different threads. Your comments, quoted in this thread, can be considered as a representative set.

So we are pretty much done here. As I mentioned before, kindly re-analyze your stances/approach and request for re-membership when you are convinced you understand and agree with Nirmukta's policies and approaches.
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I don't think you understood what I said : I DON'T REMEMBER THE CONTEXT EXACTLY WHEN I MADE THAT COMMENT about the Nirmukta-spreads-hate-against-religion comment! So I only VAGUELY recall what was there then.

If I read it now, I could find my comment very offensive! I could find it very apt to describe the situation. I don't know. Since you say
(09-May-2014, 04:00 PM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: [...]
Its not admins' job to convince you that you are misfit for the group! Its your job to convince the admins you are fit for the group.
[...]
, I have to verify for myself what I did wrong at that point. So if it's not possible to grant me read-only access, what about posting a screenshot of the facebook thread in question?
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(12-May-2014, 05:09 PM)milindsmart Wrote: , I have to verify for myself what I did wrong at that point. So if it's not possible to grant me read-only access, what about posting a screenshot of the facebook thread in question?

//and Nirmukta "spreads hate" against religions the same way these groups do//
The these in above sentence referred to https://www.facebook.com/MasculinistIndia
Does it require more context?

Anyways I think now everybody's time is getting wasted in this thread. I have already given you the expected corrective actions. So thanks and bbye.
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(12-May-2014, 09:52 PM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: //and Nirmukta "spreads hate" against religions the same way these groups do//
The these in above sentence referred to https://www.facebook.com/MasculinistIndia
Does it require more context?

No. It does not. If this is the page my comment I applied to, I'm 100% wrong. I'm sorry about being callous while commenting. There were these other pages that weren't as bad, which is what I wanted to convey. I shall henceforth desist from such excusing of hate speech.
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Rainbow 
I believe your ban has been rescinded, but you'll have to ask to join yourself manually.
Cheers to new beginnings.
[+] 2 users Like LMC's post
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