moderation open thread
#73
Dear admins,

I have been banned from Bengaluru Freethinkers and the Nirmukta group. This was after being in a discussion about issues related to feminism and sexism.
To clarify, I am not anti-feminist (going by the definition of feminism given on wikipedia). I disagree with some aspects of the feminist movement, but as I mentioned in a post earlier, I refrained from commenting on that because I hadn't studied the feminist movement enough.

LMC accused me of victim-blaming while discussing the Adria case. I disagree with that. I clearly stated that what the men did was wrong, and that Adria was right in complaining against them. I only said that public shaming for the crime that these men commited was not justified. When a crime against a woman is committed, it does not automatically mean that it is impossible for the victim to commit a crime herself too. For example, if a rape victim tortures and kills her assailant, has she not committed a crime? To only focus on the crime committed by the victim would be wrong, of course. But that is not what I did. I clearly stated that the men committed a crime and that they deserved a punishment.
   


Anyway, after asking LMC through PM, he told me the reason for my ban. I sent an apology (to info@nirmukta.com) stating that though I don't see how I was being sexist, I would accept the admins take on the matter (because they are more experienced than me). I therefore apologized. I recieved no reply so I don't know the status of that issue. I have attached a screenshot of that conversation here. Please note that one comment that I made there was deleted. If I remember correctly, all that I said in it was LMC was being too quick in characterizing my comment as victim-blaming.

Yesterday, in another conversation in Nirmukta's main group, in a discussion about Richard Dawkins, I clearly stated that I thought that his "Dear Muslima" comment was an outburst and that I have problems with it. I did also say however, that despite that statement, we can still acknowledge Dawkins' contribution to science.
   

Now I find myself banned from Nirmukta's main group too. Attached is the partial second conversation (I was banned before I could take the full screenshot). In my final comment on that thread I said "Every leader has his flaws, so do Sam Harris and Dawkins. I find many of their views problematic. But I think we can still acknoledge their achievements in Science while keeping in mind their failings as human beings, so that we can avoid those in ourselves."


I read the rules and the previous messages in this thread. I can't see why I was banned. I did not indulge in personal attacks, nor sexism. I have been involved in some heated debates but my language was always civil and I didn't troll.

I would like my membership to be reinstated because I have learnt a lot since joining Nirmukta's groups. My disagreements with the Nirmukta admins was mainly the tone in which people were called out for their sexism and the abrupt banning of people. I never thought that I myself would face that situation.

PS: **Why can't I reply to Lije? Have I been blocked? Is it a technical problem?** There was some tech glitch. It seems to be working now
PPS: I have redacted the screenshots after going through them carefully. I believe no one can be identified from them except me. Hope this is acceptable.
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#74
Chetan,

I have removed the screenshots of the facebook conversations as it may violate the privacy of the participants. We keep the facebook groups closed for the same reason. People can be open about their views without the outside world knowing about them. Also the reason why pseudonames are allowed on the forums.

Coming to your banning from the main group, it has nothing to do with your views on Sam Harris and Dawkins. You were banned because when a member is banned from one Nirmukta group, they are banned from all. But because different groups have different admins, the removing did not happen in all the groups at once.
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#75
how i can decrease my warning level from 60 to 0 or it will remain 60 forever....
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#76
It automatically expires on 05-06-2013
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#77
Dear Admins,

I'm still waiting for a clear answer about why I was banned.
I understand that if I educate myself in those areas that I am ignorant, I can reapply for membership. Unless you give me more information, how can I educate myself?

Looking forward to your replies.
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#78
(09-May-2013, 06:47 PM)chetan_crasta Wrote: Dear Admins,

I'm still waiting for a clear answer about why I was banned.
I understand that if I educate myself in those areas that I am ignorant, I can reapply for membership. Unless you give me more information, how can I educate myself?

Looking forward to your replies.

The onus is on you to read up and educate yourself. Its not for other members to send you links.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
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#79
(10-May-2013, 01:51 PM)Sajit Wrote: The onus is on you to read up and educate yourself. Its not for other members to send you links.

Agreed, nobody is obliged to give me any reason for my banning. I can't sue you for banning me. However, it is customary in such situations to give a person a warning, or at least a short explanantion after the ban. I'm sure Nirmukta's admins would like to help in educating people like me, all I'm asking for is an explanation of a few sentences.

Before my ban, I had been the most active member on Bengaluru Freethinkers. I had interacted extensively with LMC and Kanad, so I'm sure they can give me an answer without much research.
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#80
Lije had already explained the reason for banning you from the main group

Lije Wrote:Coming to your banning from the main group, it has nothing to do with your views on Sam Harris and Dawkins. You were banned because when a member is banned from one Nirmukta group, they are banned from all. But because different groups have different admins, the removing did not happen in all the groups at once

For banning you from the Bengaluru group, I think the reason is obvious to you, because it was done quite some time back.
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#81
See my first message in this thread. Apparently, I was banned because of my opinion about the Adria issue (see my first post in this thread).
However, if you go through the conversation ( http://imgur.com/ODrAuvE,27c2JdK#1 ), you'll find that the ban was unjust.
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#82
(10-May-2013, 10:51 PM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: For banning you from the Bengaluru group, I think the reason is obvious to you, because it was done quite some time back.

I was banned around a month ago. It appears to me that none of the admins, except one, know why I was banned, and that one admin is refusing to divulge the reason.

Why the lack of transparency?
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#83
(13-May-2013, 07:10 PM)chetan_crasta Wrote: Why the lack of transparency?

There is no lack of transparency but just confusion. You were banned from Bangalore group about a month ago, and then banned from main group couple of weeks ago. You posted your query after that, so it was assumed you are talking about ban from main group.

Some points to remember
1. Bans might be done based on behavior in one specific thread, but that is not necessarily so. A members might be banned based on his posts across threads, keeping in mind the history of arguments.
2. In your case, your posts have shown anti-feminist tones, or anti-feminist apologetic tones, which were also pointed out to you during the arguments.
3. Nirmukta FB groups are safe space for freethinkers, and hence access to this private space is conditional. Hence members who do not subscribe to 'core values' of Nirmukta can get banned.
4. Secular Humanism and feminism is a core value of Nirmukta.
5. Kindly do not expect admins here to point out how you were being apologetic or anti-feminist in this thread, when it was already done on the forums.

Going forward, I would suggest you to go through Nirmukta articles, forum threads, and other good resources on the web (like this). If you understand why and what exactly is Nirmukta's position on this and agree with it, kindly consider re-joining the groups.
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#84
(14-May-2013, 06:24 AM)Kanad Kanhere Wrote: 2. In your case, your posts have shown anti-feminist tones, or anti-feminist apologetic tones, which were also pointed out to you during the arguments.

Thanks for clarifying that.
Although, I disagree with your assessment that my posts were anti-feminist.

* One of the arguments that I was involved in was about the ethics of comedy (about gender issues and disadvantaged groups).There are feminists who are not against such comedy ( Slate article )

* About the Adria case I expressed a nuanced, thoughtful opinion [2]. This opinion, by the way, is also shared by the editor-in-chief of Ars Technica, Ken Fischer [3]

* I have seen several people being banned from Nirmukta for percieved anti-feminism. These people were not anti-feminists. They just didn't espouse the particular brand of feminism that the Nirmukta admins subscribe to. For this, they were bluntly criticized, and then banned without warning and without any due process. This is counter-productive.
I'm sure that the Nirmukta admins know that there are different types of feminists. Facilitating a dialog between them is the ethical and beneficial thing to do.
A hardline stance on feminism (or other issues) alienates people who take a moderate stance.

I appeal to the Nirmukta admins
  1. to have a transparent process for banning people
  2. to have a system of warning people before banning them
  3. to inform people why they have been banned (especially those who had made significant contributions to the community)
  4. to foster an inclusive community where feminists of various persuasions can have a dialog
  5. to have a more 'human' way of dealing with members who commit minor infractions in the course of interacting with others in the group

PS: After LMC's reply, I find that I have been blocked from posting here (I can only edit my existing posts). Admins, you could have simply asked me not to reply or have informed me that I can't post here anymore. My warning level is still 0%. Why did you have to block me without informing me or warning? I spent 15 mins typing my reply only to find that I was blocked!
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