The Nirmukta Freethought Community

Hi,

I'm a frequent reader of Nirmukta and am a supporter of your cause of spreading a scientific and free-thinking bent of mind in the country - first time poster

Recently a friend of mine mentioned to me that another friend was using this thing called "jeevan rasa" to purify water. I was told that it is a substance that was procured at the ashram of "Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev" - a guru/mystic from Coimbatore who's the head of the Isha Foundation. For more information about them please refer to the following links:

http://www.dhyanalinga.org/theerthakund_qa.htm

http://www.ishafoundation.org/Isha-Yoga-...alinga.isa

This substance my friend got - "jeevan rasa" is a fairly large pellet or something of solidified mercury which is claimed to have cleansing properties.

There are some very disturbing things about this that I don't know who to ask about. First is the scientific issue that you cannot solidify mercury at room temperature. Secondly, and more importantly, even if I buy that the pellet contains some amount of mercury that is mysteriously solid (maybe it's an alloy that I'm unaware about) I've heard of the effects of mercury poisoning and I'm concerned for my friend's health but it's not an issue I can discuss with him freely.

Could you advise me on what is the best course of action?

Thanks

As I understand they place the Jeeva Rasa in water to 'enhance its energy'. Of course, this is bullshit of the highest order. Mercury is obviously very poisonous, and your friend would do well to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_poisoning

Ask him/her to fully consider the risks of using the pellet. In my experience it is best to discuss without ridiculing the other person's stand point. I have found in personal experiences that sometimes ridicule does the opposite of what you intended. It tends to push the person further into the cult and believe its precepts with more conviction.

Others on this forum may advice you on possible legal action against the makers of this toxic product. Alternatively, if you have access to a chemical lab, you can procure one of the jeeva rasa thingies yourself, and do some rudimentary analytical chemistry. I am not sure if this is viable, but some instructions- http://www.epa.gov/greatlakes/lmmb/methods/analytmd.pdf

Narendra Nayak sir is chemistry professor and he will be able to help you better. Please PM him, I will do so too.

The symptoms of Mercury poisoning can be ghastly. It is pretty crazy to put Mercury in any form in drinking water!

There is a chance that it can be harmless, if handled very carefully. But putting it in potable water is still a supremely crazy thing to do. I will speculate with some background in high-school level chemistry,

1. Mercury is fairly inert in water, unless they consume it directly, I doubt if it can harm. The same may be true of its alloys which would be using mercury in its elemental metallic form.
2. If the pellet is a water-soluble compound of Mercury such as Methylmercury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylmercury, found in seafood poisoning, involved in Miramata disease outbreaks in Japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minamata_disease), then it is super dangerous to put it in water.
3. Our environments are not fully free of mercury. Skin whiteners and dental fillings use small amounts of mercury.

I'm aware of the toxic effects of the mercury and I'm very worried because of it. But the problem is that we've had heated arguments in the past about these matters - I'm on the side of science and skepticism and he tends to have a more "Deepak Chopra" - like view of the universe.

Also I don't live in India any more and don't have access to the materials from the Ashram.

So I wanted to put this out there on the forum and check if anyone at Nirmukta knows about this ashram and the work they do. The guru seems quite popular. He's got a major following outside of India. Even in India his mission does a lot of philanthropic work. My friend is a devotee of the ashram and goes to regular yoga camps there. He practices something called kriya yoga which he claims can give you some mystic power. He claims its transformed his life but I don't personally see much in it.

He's influenced a lot of my other friends to take up the practice of kriya yoga as well so I'm sort of taken even less seriously when I question the claims of the guru.

Would be great if anyone else on this forum knows about the foundation or the guru and can advise me on an appropriate course of action

(10-02-2012 09:42 AM)rahula1 Wrote:  He's influenced a lot of my other friends to take up the practice of kriya yoga as well so I'm sort of taken even less seriously when I question the claims of the guru.

Would be great if anyone else on this forum knows about the foundation or the guru and can advise me on an appropriate course of action

Yep I know about Jaggi Vasudev. Have many friends who are his followers. Partly the reason I chose to answer this question. He is the SS Ravishankar types, yet different- a yoga teacher who sells his expertise embellished with pseudoscientific woo for thousands of dollars. He also apparently has some philanthropy going on in India. Lot of pseudoscience. I spent some time going through his videos on Youtube, some of the things he says constitute pretty reasonable advice for living well, though he peddles a LOT of BS. A lot of my friends swear by Kriya Yoga, that it reduces their stress, etc. It is possible that Kriya Yoga truly reduces stress- but without sound empirical studies we can never accept it as a reasonable assertion. (though, whether meditation is 'better' than rest, sleep, sex, exercise, etc. is itself debatable http://www.sciencemag.org/content/192/4245/1242.short , full paper: http://bit.ly/xRZO3y , vs. http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/20...editation/ ).

Apart from the pseudoscientific aspect, AFAIK, there is nothing in Kriya Yoga that can bodily harm you. If there is, please do let us know.

But I don't see how this information helps you in deciding on a course of action.

We have discussed on nirmukta.net in the past, some of Jaggi Vasudev's pseudoscience. Here is a link, where we critique a study that purports to show the effectiveness of Kriya Yoga: http://nirmukta.net/Thread-Pseudoscienti...ight=jaggi

i hope you guys know that the tablets are not of pure mercury, but those obtained after the proper detoxifying processes.(they are usually in bhasma form)

mineral medicines(which come under the domain of rasa shastra) have been used to treat many cases of cancers, the most common among them are medicines made from mercury(rasa),silver(rajata),lead(vaanga),diamond(heeraka) and many others, along with proper diet plans and other herbal medicines.

maybe nirmukta as a whole can look at the cancer cases cured by these medicines by looking at the doctors who have cured and also the patients whom they have cured, by going through the medical reports, etc.

of course this would be a tougher job(oh and also go against the spirit of this website, even if provided with evidence) and would require more cross referencing than just filing a legal case without studying the background. :-\

(19-02-2012 10:04 AM)manu Wrote:  i hope you guys know that the tablets are not of pure mercury, but those obtained after the proper detoxifying processes.(they are usually in bhasma form)

mineral medicines(which come under the domain of rasa shastra) have been used to treat many cases of cancers, the most common among them are medicines made from mercury(rasa),silver(rajata),lead(vaanga),diamond(heeraka) and many others, along with proper diet plans and other herbal medicines.

maybe nirmukta as a whole can look at the cancer cases cured by these medicines by looking at the doctors who have cured and also the patients whom they have cured, by going through the medical reports, etc.

of course this would be a tougher job(oh and also go against the spirit of this website, even if provided with evidence) and would require more cross referencing than just filing a legal case without studying the background. :-\

Your remarks "against the spirit of the website even if provided with evidence" is uttered in just hate and is an ad-hominem. Or you have very low standards of evidence, for e.g. anecdotal evidence DOES NOT constitue as evidence.

In any case, post some links that give a detailed explanation about how this tablet works (in medical terms as to how some specific chemical causes some specific changes etc. and not in woo language of negative energies blah blah) some publishings in peer reviewed journals and double blind experiments. This, atleast from my side, I can confirm to be compelling evidence.

coming back to bhasmas there are numerous cases of it curing cancer patients.(along with the additional herbal medicines).

VCP cancer research foundation

http://www.padaav.com/content/City_Cheer...y_2008.pdf
http://www.padaav.com/publication.html

this is vaidya balendu prakash and he has cured numerous patients suffering from cancer(especially leukemia) using his mineral preparations. if the members here feel he is a fraud and cooking up data, nirmukta members can cross reference the medical cases with prestigious hospitals in india like AIIMS, tata memorial hospital mumbai, and also hospitals in england(one case was referred to him via the royal masdah hospital, sutton). nirmukta members can also meet the people whose lives he has saved to confirm the diagnosis.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19225195/Onclolgy-in-Ayurveda

kottakal arya vaidya shala in malappuram kerala has saved people from adenocarcinoma of stomach, lung cancer, leukemia,etc
again one can cross reference the medical histories of the patients from kotakkal, nizam's institute of medical sciences, etc

some more examples of healers i can give from whatever literature i have read.
vaidya konchigere who has cured leukemia, anemia, kidney failure. again the medical records can be examined.
vaidya basavaraja konchigere, kadokol shirarahatt taluk, gadag district, karnataka. contact: 08372-221418, 9449925066.

with big institutions like kotakkal, vcp cancer research foundation, it should not be difficult for the nirmukta members to cross reference the medical histories of the patients cured with other hospitals in which they were admitted first(who usually refer them to the ayurvedic vaidyas).

the vaidyas(especially for cancer) administer metallic preparations of mercury, gold, silver, arsenic sulphide, sulphur, lead, diamond, etc. along with herbal preparations.
you can get the details of the medicines used, medical case histories, etc.

http://www.ijaronline.com/

this journal has a number of interesting papers.
http://www.jns-journal.com/article/S0022...4/abstract
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...410500228X
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10....22.10.1.87
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j044088768k48700/


nirmukta has the financial resources, man power and man hours to carry out a thorough corroboration of the evidence to find out about the efficacy of the treatment, or it can continue organizing programs like agni snana, vajra virechana, etc. i mean we all know that in india money is always spent on causes which mean very little or cause little benefit to the public. also probably the only country where genuine healers and life savers and called by dirty names.

(19-02-2012 08:52 PM)manu Wrote:  nirmukta has the financial resources, man power and man hours to carry out a thorough corroboration of the evidence to find out about the efficacy of the treatment, or it can continue organizing programs like agni snana, vajra virechana, etc.

For a treatment, or evidence for its effectiveness, to be verified, you need at least three things:

1. A scientific explanation for the biological and chemical processes underlying the treatment. This explanation should conform to the rigors of modern science. These should be published in prestigious peer reviewed journals.
2. Statistical verification via clinical trials. It goes without saying that these should be reviewed by competent peers and published in good journals.
3. There is an important stage of meta-analysis, where these studies are studied and examined for consistency and correctness.

The sum of these methods is referred to as science based medicine. This presentation may help you learn about science based medicine, http://skepdic.com/sciencebasedmedicine.html

{Edit: changed 'evidence based medicine' to 'science based medicine'. I just realized I was unaware of the subtle distinctions.}

your "GOOD" journals will not accept papers based on mineral based ayurvedic medicines, saying that they are either outside the scope of the journals or need more placebo, double blind studies, or are extremely toxic etc. ya sure the placebo effect occours for cancer patients too who are staring death in the eyes :-\. many medicines are pushed by the big pharma lobbies/patents. these mineral based treatments can be mainly published by only ayurvedic journals or integrated/alternate medicine journals.
there are no "GOOD" and "BAD" journals. there are those papers that conform to evidence and then there are those that negate evidence or are harmful in someway or the other to the human body inspite of calming some of the symptoms. although the impact of findings may vary, but evidence is always the most important thing.
side effects from some allopathic medicines cause seizures and sometimes even deaths, and even then these medicines continue to circulate in the market.

you can feed bhasmas to horses, goats, mice, orangutans or whatever animals you like. they are safe and have been so for atleast 2000 years.

evidence has shown that ayurvedic medicines cause lesser trauma to patients and are more successful in treating patients than chemo/radiation with fewer cases of relapses.

evidence based medicine is one which delivers what it promises on a statistically significant basis, and has lower side effects(preferably nil). evidence is much much more important than peer review.(i hope this need not be stressed). one cannot form their own definitions of what constitutes an evidence based medicine.

the scientific explanation for bhasmas curing cancer is no voodoo. the human body(and other animals too), needs certain metals to survive and for the proper functioning of its vital organs. due to poor agricultural practices(like depleting the quality of the soil), poor dietary habits like eating too much synthetically prepared food or food containing too much chemical preservatives, also certain lifestyle disorders can distort the body's power to assimilate and use nutrients and micronutrients, trace elements. these include iron,copper,gold,silver,tin,lead,etc. now modern medical theory very much accepts iron(blood),copper, etc. but gold, silver, etc may not be mentioned because maybe we still don't have powerful enough measuring instruments???

regarding mercury, the human body may not need mercury, but mercury is considered to be the most powerful drug in rasa shastra and has the maximum healing qualities. i won't state the reason here as it may be unpalatable to the readers here.

bhasmas are fast acting and are capable of carrying the nutrients to the cells fast. again, dedicated man power/equipment and funding is required to study the effects of bhasmas on living beings. this can be done and takes a lot of time, but the indian medical establishment is to blame for the lack of studies in this subject. also the success stories of ayurvedic treatments for killer diseases like cancer has come into prominence since around 1990,(although ayurvedic treatments were effective even before that)

your repeated calls for peer review from only "GOOD" journals is baseless. it's almost like saying we will follow only what the vatican/high authority says even if it means going against the evidence. most of the diseases in modern medical science is almost always blamed on "VIRUSES", and very rarely on things like poor digestion, etc. whereas in ayurveda most of the medicines cater to improve digestion. the theory of viruses were formulated before people studied apoptosis, mitosis or other small scale phenomena, but viruses form a good blame for phenomena that we are unable to comprehend. also the life/non life of viruses are never captured with the same level of detail like those bacteria and other microorganisms, which we very well know exist.

(20-02-2012 12:14 AM)manu Wrote:  your "GOOD" journals will not accept papers based on mineral based ayurvedic medicines, saying that they are either outside the scope of the journals or need more placebo, double blind studies, or are extremely toxic etc..

Science is a process. Anything you deem evidence does not become evidence. If that is the case, then there plenty of "evidence" for god, pink unicorns, UFOs etc... The evidence needs to go through the process. Is the process perfect? No. But it is self correcting. It is the best thing we have so far. Alt-med proponents have so much faith in their treatments that when they fail to get through the process, give the usual strawman arguments (OMG BIG PHARMA! SIDE EFFECTS! WE ARE SO NATURAL!).

Also, there is something called burden of proof. If I say there is a dragon in my garage, it is my responsibility to prove that it is so. I can't say "You prove that there is no dragon in my garage". So all science is asking of alt-med is, show me the dragon.

So, either you do that or stop wasting time on countlessly and pointlessly repeated arguments.

bhasma based medicines have saved lives of people who had given up all hope of living and were given deadlines by their allopathic doctors. the evidence is there for all to see, the medical records can be accessed(across multiple institutions like AIIMS and TMC mumbai, etc), but only requires the will to do so. an organisation with the financial resources and man power like nirmukta can go ahead and do the investigating if it wants to, or can continue talking mindless gibberish.
if saving people from the clutches of death doesn't count as evidence then i don't know what does.

your burden of proof argument has no connection with the kind of evidences/arguments provided here. epistemological fallacy of the worst kind.

go on, spread the propaganda by your blinded ignorance. file court cases against bhasmas of mercury, lead, etc

you guys are doing a great service for the nation.

i'm out of this place, adios

(10-02-2012 06:12 AM)rahula1 Wrote:  Hi,

I'm a frequent reader of Nirmukta and am a supporter of your cause of spreading a scientific and free-thinking bent of mind in the country - first time poster

Recently a friend of mine mentioned to me that another friend was using this thing called "jeevan rasa" to purify water. I was told that it is a substance that was procured at the ashram of "Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev" - a guru/mystic from Coimbatore who's the head of the Isha Foundation. For more information about them please refer to the following links:

http://www.dhyanalinga.org/theerthakund_qa.htm

http://www.ishafoundation.org/Isha-Yoga-...alinga.isa

This substance my friend got - "jeevan rasa" is a fairly large pellet or something of solidified mercury which is claimed to have cleansing properties.

There are some very disturbing things about this that I don't know who to ask about. First is the scientific issue that you cannot solidify mercury at room temperature. Secondly, and more importantly, even if I buy that the pellet contains some amount of mercury that is mysteriously solid (maybe it's an alloy that I'm unaware about) I've heard of the effects of mercury poisoning and I'm concerned for my friend's health but it's not an issue I can discuss with him freely.

Could you advise me on what is the best course of action?

Thanks

I am giving you mail sent to MOEF, Govt Of India on details of Mercury Hazard from Spiritual and cultural applications. Please see.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Natarajan V.L.
Date: Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 1:32 PM
Subject: Mercury Hazard from cultural and spiritual applications.
To: jayanthi.n@sansad.nic.in, mosefgoi@nic.in


To : Minister for Environment & Forest, Govt. Of India,N Delhi : 110001,

Respected madam,

I work with United Nations Environment Program ( UNEP ) as Partner for reduction of Mercury from all applications.

Mercury is highly neurotoxin and is dangerous to mankind and environment.If it enters body through inhalation or oral dosage, it can cause dementia/lassitude/brain damage/alzheimers disease/ even death. Mercury is in liquid form at room temperature and even slight temperature rise in the surrounding can make mercury to become vapor and it can easily get into human body through inhalation. Mercury in water can become Methyl Mercury, which is again a dangerous substance to human and surrounding eco system. If a person is exposed to even 4-5 minutes in a very low level of Mercury environment, it can effect.Mercury is odorless and it is difficult to say if one is inhaling Mercury lased air/water. Mercury is more detrimental in children and pregnant women since it easily gets absorbed in them.


Study has been done by University of Calgary,Canada how Mercury can damage brain and see web link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf6uCw2ztxw to understand the problem associated with Mercury.

Mercury is used in health care sector, dental amalgam, chlor- alkali industry, CFL lamps, batteries, paint and coatings, etc. Huge amount of Mercury is let off from thermal power plant/cement plants while burning coal which travels along with air and gets deposited far away places and hence, a trans border problem.There has been some awareness about the Mercury Hazard in these sectors and lot has to be done in these sectors for mercury free/reduction programs.

In India another major source of Mercury Hazard is from cultural and spiritual applications,which is being done out of belief, which has no scientific evidence. I believe usage of Mercury in this sector in India may surpass usage of Mercury in all other sector put together.Use of Mercury is rising in this sector.

1) Isha Foundation, Coimbatore : This is run by Jaggi Vasudev and the receipient of "Indira Gandhi Paryavaran Puraskar ( IGPP )" for the year 2008 from your ministry for Significant and measurable contribution in the filed of Environment protection and improvement.As per THiNK 2012, Jaggi Vasudev is mentioned as voted 100 most powerful Indian for his contributions to the field of Environmental protection and Ecological concerns.
They have a pond in which 700 Kg Mercury based idol is immersed and they recommend visitors and discipline to have bath inside the pond for better spiritual enhancement ( see their web link : http://www.dhyanalinga.org/theerthakund_qa.htm and explanation ).Their main idol Dhyanalinga and Lingabhairavi has also Mercury in it in large quantity ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzDujHZEO7o ( see at 1.3 minutes and 2.16 minutes where they are handling Mercury by hand ).Recently they have opened another Pond in the name of Suryakund in which again 3 large Mercury based Idol for men for spiritual receptivity ( see their web link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YykjJ8jJDc4 ). Also see link : http://blog.ishafoundation.org/inside-is...live-blog/


They also say to have bath in these ponds if having any ailments,so that they will be cured.

Jaggi Vasudev receipient of IGPP award is supposed to be a role model to the society and if such a person resort to such activities,what would happen to others which are unnoticed.


2) Yogiraj Siddhanath's Forest Ashram,Pune:They have 1000 Kg weighing Mercury Idol.Also, refer their link Alchemy of total transformation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQZxp2TXp...ure=relmfu for explanation.See their link:http://www.panoramio.com/photo/34886948

3) Siddha Ashram, Ujjain by Swamy Naradanad : It has 2500 Kg weighing Mercury Idol.See their link : http://www.siddhaashram.net/paras_shivalinga/index.htm

4) Mahamerupeetam,Bilaspur: See their link: http://mahamerupeetam.in/about_swamiji

5) In Andhra Pradesh : See link : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lll7ioBMI...re=related

6) In Tamil Nadu : How they make these Mercury idols in crude way and explanation :

See link : http://www.gurudevar.com/2011/03/12/rasa...in-kalvam/

http://www.gurudevar.com/2011/04/02/ever...-it-works/

http://www.gurudevar.com/2011/03/12/rasa...from-hand/

http://www.gurudevar.com/2011/03/12/rasa...nto-balls/

7) There are many more Mercury idols in Delhi, Haridwar, Maharashtra,etc,which I can send you the details.

8) There are innumerable Sky shops in internet and spiritual/cultural outlets in India, which sells Parad Mercury idols/cups/beads/rings.They claim spiritual receptivity increases, if one is surrounded in Mercury pond or idol. If they do pooja every day or drink milk/holy water from Parad cup, then all their problem would get solved and they achieve what they desire such as wealth, fame, health, etc.

Just google” Parad idols” in internet, then so many sites would pop up selling all kind of Mercury based prducts for spiritual applications.

Refer United Nations policy on Mercury in cultural applications : http://www.chem.unep.ch/mercury/awarenes...-16_BD.pdf for you to understand problem with Mercury.


I am enclosing herewith a file "Creating Networks & Information for Mercury Policy in India and Europe" done by Toxics Link, which has done Leaching behaviour of Parad Mercury idol in milk and water( see page 43 to 56 ) and indeed it is leaching and harmful.

In early 80's Hindustan Unilever Ltd (earlier Pond's India Ltd) dismantled their Mercury Thermometer plant from US( due to Mercury legislation and local protest in US) and set up the unit in Kodaikanal,T.Nadu. In short time people working in the plant and neighbourhood realised danger associated with Mercury.At least 45 Mercury related death and innumerable Mercury related diseases are reported and finally this unit was closed and still compensation litigation is going on.See attached file Basel Action Network on Mercury.

What would happen to people and environment near by these sites and also to people visiting these sites?

In many countries Mercury is banned due to its problem associated with human kind. Industry is going away from Mercury to safer methods. Even in health care sector, WHO has come out with Mercury free policy, looking at the danger associated with mercury: http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_heal...lpaper.pdf

By way of this mail, I request government to bring in some legislation in use of Mercury for these unscientific ways. Or request Pollution control board/government to step in to enact law for banning use of Mercury for spiritual and cultural application.They can educate people on Mercury hazard by putting up information in mass media (print/visual, hand outs, posters etc).

I also request you to withdraw withdraw Indiran Gandhi Paryavan Puraskar( IGPP ) awarded to Isha Foundation immediately and ask them to do away with Mercury from their surrounding and once they do away with Mercury, then IGPP can be given back to them. This would act as deterrent for others, not to do such things in future.

I can send you further information on Mercury, please feel free to write to me


Request you to take up necessary action to ban/reduce of use of Mercury in spiritul and cultural areas.Also, withdraw IGPP award from Isha Foundation and give back IGPP to them, once they are Mercury free.

Kindly acknowledge receipt of this e-mail and awaiting your immediate reply.

Thanking you,
Regards,
V.L.Natarajan,
BMP No : 61, Behind Chinmaya Flats,
S G Palaya, C V Raman Nagar Post,
Bangalore : 560093,India.
Telefax :+91-80- 25248597,Mob : +91 9886748595,e-Mail : natarajanvaidyanathapuram@gmail.com