[split] National Pride and Caste
#1
Mod Note:Split from here - http://nirmukta.net/Thread-Patriotism-Is...ry-ethical

Quote:We come from a culture where knowledge was free.
Is this true? Surely, could you please point out where in our system (before british era) the knowledge was freely shared?

Quote:Speaking of caste system in India. Its in a degenerated state - which can be seen even in corporate companies here. Come to think of it, its our Republic Day today. Lets spare a thought for the architect of Indian constitution Dr. B R Ambedkar who was an atheist(?). Introducing reservations for SC and ST was fine at the time, but its getting abused to the core not only by politicians, but also citizens who are changing their caste status on purpose. I think its time to remove all reservations and move towards a uniform civil code. The identity which was given to us by Gandhi of "Unity in Diversity" should also be revised to say "Diversity United".
I read Ambedkar's "Budhha and his dhamma", and he's rejected the claims of "rebirth" and "god". So in that term you may say that he was an atheist. Also in his biography, i never found that he's been termed as religious person. May be the term "atheist" was not in vogue in those days.

Now, when to end reservation is matter of debate. And you certainly don't have much idea about what is oppression.
You can find paper published in Economic and Political Weekly on October 13, 2007. How the study is done and how the conclusion is drawn is given in the article.
In the brief, the study was undertaken to know if religious/caste bias exist in private sector jobs with professional high university graduates. And unsuprisingly, bias does exist. And just think when it exist in so called educated class, how much oppression still exist elsewhere (Here, I assumed that Educated and Urban people are often less biased).

And what exactly do you meants for Uniform civil code? Which part of it you are objecting at?
- Marraige and Inheritance are the two things which are different. And ofcourse, inheritance law in Muslims is biased towards male and the inter-religion marraige. I would like to know what other things you are actually looking at in U C C. Just for reference, every country has its own laws about inheritance according to society, for example, see the status of muslims sharia law of ineritance in singapore.
Indians today are governed by two different ideologies. Their political ideal set in the preamble of the Constitution affirms a life of liberty, equality and fraternity. Their social ideal embodied in their religion denies them. - Ambedkar
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#2
Quote:Humans and Technology go together. There is no separating both. Saying otherwise is being ignorant of history. Something as simple and basic as agriculture is technology. If you want to realize the full human potential, by all means do so - by living in the wild without using any tools (like clothing and medicine). We have been overtly dependent on technology for several thousands of years. What you are doing is drawing an arbitrary line on what is technology and what is not. For you eastern is not technology. Anything western is. That goes back to my point about the false dichotomy of east vs west.

I was talking about the industrial revolution which did start in the west. That's when the technological revolution began. Probably you're understanding of the word "overtly" is different to mine. Somehow my feeling is that technology is eroding techniques like Ayurveda or Accupuncture which are eastern techniques. I don't like the dichotomy of east v/s west, but as I said there are things which I read which is very humilianting. Its not just about the patent thing. What about E-Waste

Quote:You obviously are from a non-discriminated background and do not understand caste oppression. It is nowhere close to the class system that you speak of. I too come from a non-discriminated background, but I've learnt to listen when someone who has faced oppression talks about it. I do not give in to the usual lame excuses against affirmative action. But all this is a digression. I don't have the time to elucidate more on caste. That reminds me that it is high time we had a FAQ against caste apologetics.

Caste system in our country is disgusting. I may not have a discriminated background, but I grew up in what most people would consider a horrible place to live. I grew up with minorities, there was a large drain right in front of our house. The name of the locality where I lived was called as "feaces lake" in local language. The smell was disgusting most of the time. I've seen people killing stray dogs and eat its meat, out of hunger and yes I've tasted it too! Probably I need to go and live in the wild!

I used the term class because oppression is a global problem. The lower class people all over the world do the dirty jobs, live in dirty places etc. I don't like the way people from other countries poke fun at us pointing at our caste system without solving their own problems. They cleverly mask their problems by showing their development in various fields. Atleast we didn't ethnically cleanse humans. Anyway it looks like I got carried away.

Quote:Nationalism is not good. I can be rabid about my Linux fandom, but it is done with the perfect understanding of where the boundaries of that rabidness are. Nationalism does not respect many boundaries. As such it is not even worth defending by citing innocuous things like sports teams. It is just as bad, if not more, than religion. While being an atheist is great, it is only a beginning point. Moving towards humanism should be the real goal. When you are a humanist, even the mere thought of conquering nations will seem repulsive.

In fact when I was writing that I did feel repulsive, but then again when there is a war you
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#3
[post split due to slow internet connection]

Now would this have happened if we were face to face? Stupid Internet hehe.

I used the term class because oppression is a global problem. The lower class people all over the world do the dirty jobs, live in dirty places etc. I don't like the way people from other countries poke fun at us pointing at our caste system without solving their own problems. They cleverly mask their problems by showing their development in various fields. Atleast we didn't ethnically cleanse humans. Anyway it looks like I got carried away.

Quote:Nationalism is not good. I can be rabid about my Linux fandom, but it is done with the perfect understanding of where the boundaries of that rabidness are. Nationalism does not respect many boundaries. As such it is not even worth defending by citing innocuous things like sports teams. It is just as bad, if not more, than religion. While being an atheist is great, it is only a beginning point. Moving towards humanism should be the real goal. When you are a humanist, even the mere thought of conquering nations will seem repulsive.

In fact when I was writing that I did feel repulsive, but then again when there is a war you obviously want to win. For this to happen you need to believe in yourself. I mean we got invaded by so many countries, it seems like our military was very weak. A sportsperson has a similar nationalistic feeling except that the skillset is different.

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#4
(27-Jan-2012, 10:39 PM)screech Wrote: Somehow my feeling is that technology is eroding techniques like Ayurveda or Accupuncture which are eastern techniques.

You are saying that as if it is a bad thing. Pseudoscience needs to go away. As I said, atheism is just the beginning. Here at Nirmukta we stress on a naturalistic worldview.

(27-Jan-2012, 10:39 PM)screech Wrote: I don't like the dichotomy of east v/s west, but as I said there are things which I read which is very humilianting. Its not just about the patent thing. What about E-Waste

What about X, where X=[bad thing 1, bad thing 2 etc...], so that you can continue with the false dichotomy of east and west? Maybe it is humiliating to you because you are nationalistic and cannot digest the fact the bad things happen in our country, and don't like it when the bad things are pointed out?

(27-Jan-2012, 10:39 PM)screech Wrote: Caste system in our country is disgusting. I may not have a discriminated background, but I grew up in what most people would consider a horrible place to live. I grew up with minorities, there was a large drain right in front of our house. The name of the locality where I lived was called as "feaces lake" in local language. The smell was disgusting most of the time.

If you really understood the scale of caste discrimination, you wouldn't have said "Introducing reservations for SC and ST was fine at the time, but its getting abused to the core not only by politicians, but also citizens who are changing their caste status on purpose." Reservations are needed today as well. So your explanation of "I know oppressed people" isn't convincing. What you are doing is diluting the extent of the problem by incorrect comparisions and indulging in what-aboutery.

(27-Jan-2012, 10:39 PM)screech Wrote: I used the term class because oppression is a global problem. The lower class people all over the world do the dirty jobs, live in dirty places etc. I don't like the way people from other countries poke fun at us pointing at our caste system without solving their own problems. They cleverly mask their problems by showing their development in various fields.

Why can't people criticize bad things? Not everyone in every country is responsible for bad things that the country does. When you get rid of nationalism, you will see problems for what they are. You will not get apologetic just because some group has said something about your group.

(27-Jan-2012, 10:39 PM)screech Wrote: Atleast we didn't ethnically cleanse humans.

Nationalism at work again. If you think vast sections of the Indian population don't get killed to serve the interests of a few, you need to ask yourself how much do you really know about the country you are trying to defend. Ever read what people like P. Sainath write?

(27-Jan-2012, 10:39 PM)screech Wrote: In fact when I was writing that I did feel repulsive, but then again when there is a war you obviously want to win. For this to happen you need to believe in yourself. I mean we got invaded by so many countries, it seems like
our military was very weak.

Conquering is different from defending. When defending, it is enough if you stop the invaders. No need to conquer the entire country. Also, since the time India was formed as we know it today, how many countries invaded it? 2? How did that become "so many"? That is another malady of nationalism. Dwelling in the past and nursing bygone grudges.
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#5
When I said free knowledge in India. I meant mathematics which we generously shared with the world and didn't get any credit for it.

Speaking of casteism. This is my understanding..

By today's moral standards, it will obviously make you puke. When you look at the history of casteism -- it started of as any other class hierarchy -- there was enough freedom for people to choose their profession. The major issue is that the top tier was occupied by brahmins with all their weird rituals. And there was nobody outside the structure who could control them.

I feel casteism is similar to a feudal system. Compare it to the Japanese feudal system where Samurai warriors occupied the top teir or the British Class system where the top teir has the Royals. As these different social structures evolved the top teir subjugated the lower teirs in their own ways. And yes class did get heriditary in all these structures. In our case brahmins' rituals got weirder and crazier on the lower classes. In case of the British Royals hanging people for petty crimes seemed to be their favorite pastime/captial punishment( the famous victorian torture techniques ) and in the case of the Samurais invading small villages was their cup of tea. A more modern example would be the Politicians and Corporates of the USA dumbing down their own people. hehe.. sorry counldn't resist!

So you say that casteism in India is thousands of years ago. But when did it actually begin to de-generate? During the British Raj, the Brits took help of the Brahmins to setup the bureaucracy by installing them in prestigious positions which brought casteism to the forefront. I don't know the status of casteism during the Mughal Era. I'm not a huge fan of transliterating old religious texts which use winding metophors and make sense out of them.

I don't like reservations because it highlights the divisions. Oh come on! does it really take 60 years to overcome casteism? You obviously can't reverse casteism and run it for a thousand years to restore balance. Do you really think after independence our pathetic politicians have tried abolishing casteism? They took advantage of casteism that has helped them rule using the same "divide and rule" we went through during the British Raj.

Casteism should be tackeled at the grass root level if not we'll end up having more Mayavatis instead of Ambedkars. Reservation should be removed from the education system. In fact I feel education up to 10th standard should be free for all and the whole sylabus must be standardized. I don't like the idea of State, CBSE and ICSE boards. There should be one common education board! This allows better integration of students from different backgrounds. Casteism starts at the school level. Its common knowledge that children ape the older generation. If they see someone different in their class they go and ask their elders who pass on their casteist knowledge. The younger generation should be given more freedom and empowered so as to help them tackle their elders. Boy! when I was a student I thought teaching was a boring profession. Now you know the power of teaching -- you can shape an entire generation. The big question is obviously if we have the infrastructure for all this? And more importantly do we have selfless politicians who really care about the future of our country?

As I said nationalism is an aggressive form of patriotism. Patriotism transforms to nationalism when you're defending your country or attacking another. It is not always enough if you stop invaders. If you get to know about an imminent invasion then you have an option to attack. Attack is the best form of defense some say. And when I mean war it doesn't mean nuking off a country. Wars are fought by rules.. you just can't go berserk and kill anyone you like. War is always the last option, but you should be ready when it happens. Say you go to a stadium to cheer for your national team then obviously you'll be egging them on by screaming they are the best! That's motivation! And one more good thing is that there may be fans from different backgrounds in the stadium, but you put aside all your differences and cheer for your team in unison. So yes patriotism is good and nationalism is good depending on the context.

Now you're asking me how many countries invaded India..
Britain, Netherlands, Denmark, Portugal, France, Persia.
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#6
(02-Feb-2012, 02:12 AM)screech Wrote: When I said free knowledge in India. I meant mathematics which we generously shared with the world and didn't get any credit for it.
We do get credit for the mathematics Indian subcontinent offered. . Many mathematic principles are not copied from here to Europe, but they were independently developed. Often the people, who spread the idea, get the credit, even when idea could have been established in other part of the world. In India the knowledge was long forgotten, in that sense the science which we see today is borrowed from Europeans and not from ancient Indians.

(02-Feb-2012, 02:12 AM)screech Wrote: By today's moral standards, it will obviously make you puke. When you look at the history of casteism -- it started of as any other class hierarchy -- there was enough freedom for people to choose their profession. The major issue is that the top tier was occupied by brahmins with all their weird rituals. And there was nobody outside the structure who could control them.
How did you make this conclusion that caste and class are equivalent or caste system is devired from class system or class existed before the castes? Could you point the reference wherein you can say that varna system and caste system are interchangeable. I am assuming that class as varna and caste as jati. We may talk about sub-caste later.

(02-Feb-2012, 02:12 AM)screech Wrote: So you say that casteism in India is thousands of years ago. But when did it actually begin to de-generate? During the British Raj, the Brits took help of the Brahmins to setup the bureaucracy by installing them in prestigious positions which brought casteism to the forefront. I don't know the status of casteism during the Mughal Era. I'm not a huge fan of transliterating old religious texts which use winding metophors and make sense out of them.

How did British helped caste system to become rigid? Yes, British took Brahmins in there posts because they were allowed to study. But at the same time, many military requirements were filled by lower caste people, so British only employing Brahmins to divide and rule is not convincing. In fact the most significant battle between last Maratha (1818)] king and British were fought with the help of untouchables.


(02-Feb-2012, 02:12 AM)screech Wrote: I don't like reservations because it highlights the divisions. Oh come on! does it really take 60 years to overcome casteism? You obviously can't reverse casteism and run it for a thousand years to restore balance. Do you really think after independence our pathetic politicians have tried abolishing casteism? They took advantage of casteism that has helped them rule using the same "divide and rule" we went through during the British Raj.

Could you please read this paper again? Do you really believe that castesism has been overcome?

(02-Feb-2012, 02:12 AM)screech Wrote: Casteism should be tackeled at the grass root level if not we'll end up having more Mayavatis instead of Ambedkars. Reservation should be removed from the education system. In fact I feel education up to 10th standard should be free for all and the whole sylabus must be standardized. I don't like the idea of State, CBSE and ICSE boards. There should be one common education board! This allows better integration of students from different backgrounds. Casteism starts at the school level. Its common knowledge that children ape the older generation. If they see someone different in their class they go and ask their elders who pass on their casteist knowledge. The younger generation should be given more freedom and empowered so as to help them tackle their elders. Boy! when I was a student I thought teaching was a boring profession. Now you know the power of teaching -- you can shape an entire generation. The big question is obviously if we have the infrastructure for all this? And more importantly do we have selfless politicians who really care about the future of our country?

Casteism is learned at home, and not at school. As per my knowledge, school never made it public about the caste of student. May be in college you get to know to which group the person belongs to. But still, I knew the caste of every student in my class. I knew that which caste does one Brahmin belongs to? Like deshath or kokanastha. This knowledge came from the society, may be from parents but not from school.
(02-Feb-2012, 02:12 AM)screech Wrote: Now you're asking me how many countries invaded India..
Britain, Netherlands, Denmark, Portugal, France, Persia.
Which India are you refereeing to, the present one or the one from Ashoka? As in medieval period, the India was divided into many small kingdoms.

Indians today are governed by two different ideologies. Their political ideal set in the preamble of the Constitution affirms a life of liberty, equality and fraternity. Their social ideal embodied in their religion denies them. - Ambedkar
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#7
I'm back with super fast Internet!

Quote:We do get credit for the mathematics Indian subcontinent offered. . Many mathematic principles are not copied from here to Europe, but they were independently developed. Often the people, who spread the idea, get the credit, even when idea could have been established in other part of the world. In India the knowledge was long forgotten, in that sense the science which we see today is borrowed from Europeans and not from ancient Indians.

That's a real pity. It goes to show the lack of patriotism in us. In fact while I was preparing for CET I went through the Trachtenberg speed system instead of vedic mathematics just assuming that it must be better than our own system since its more popular with books and all. Anyway I was pathetic at mathematics so it just didn't matter what I ended up reading. Lets be honest here -- we need to promote our culture better. Heritage is vital in forming a nation's identity. It will include ancient monuments, traditions, rituals etc. But then that's our history, you can't deny it. Our country is home to many religious traditions which one can practice freely -- that's what our secularism is all about. Then again it doesn't mean that we need to take the whole thing as is and promote it. We can weed out the negatives and improvise to get a more global appeal.

(This is one reason I'd like to see "UNIFORM" civil code adopted in the near future which would pave the way for a common identity. Identity could be say - our's is a free country or country of dreams oh wait that's been taken..um.. lets improvise shall we? how about country where dreams actually come true! SWEET!)

Quote:How did you make this conclusion that caste and class are equivalent or caste system is devired from class system or class existed before the castes? Could you point the reference wherein you can say that varna system and caste system are interchangeable. I am assuming that class as varna and caste as jati. We may talk about sub-caste later.

My sincere mistake. I'm not well versed with caste and jati. If you could provide a working link, I'd be pleased to go through the treatise. I found similarities between the varna and the class since both are hereditary structures. As evidence suggests in ancient India the varna system was not rigid as it later became. There were revolutions for equality in both cases. Where did I talk about the existence of one thing before the other or one getting derived from the other?

Quote:How did British helped caste system to become rigid? Yes, British took Brahmins in there posts because they were allowed to study. But at the same time, many military requirements were filled by lower caste people, so British only employing Brahmins to divide and rule is not convincing. In fact the most significant battle between last Maratha (1818)] king and British were fought with the help of untouchables.

You're all over the place my friend. Probably you should try reading what's written in my post instead of wikipedia. I merely stated that Casteism came to the forefront. You're saying British employed untouchables to fight a war. But do you know if those soldiers enjoyed the same facilities as any other soldier? What was their wage? My enemy is your enemy so we're friends! The untouchables fought because they believed in something -- this doesn't make the Brits morally right. Get it?

The main idea of the British was to conquer us, and on the way if they got some reason that indirectly helped their main cause they took it. This is the kind of bigotry I'm against. If there is an evil in the society the revolution to route it out should begin internally and not by an outsider. The outsider will end up replacing one evil with another -- because he doesn't know the people and their history -- even more so if the agenda is to conquer the nation.

What did you learn from the war in Afghanistan? The troops went there to liberate or obliterate and get hold of the oil reserves? What happened? Compare this to the internal uprising in Libya. Which do you think is more effective?

Quote:Could you please read this paper again? Do you really believe that castesism has been overcome?

Working link please. I don't believe that casteism has been overcome, but we are going in the wrong path is what I implied. Its time to move towards a common identity instead of highlighting the divisions and trying to compensate the subjugated by reminding them of the past. If you really believe that everyone are born equal then that's where you should start. Don't see them as someone different just make sure they integrate better within the society. If the so called upper caste is subjugating a lower caste. Try to view that from the moral window instead of viewing it through a caste window.

There was someone here lamenting on how we should forget the past and move on when I got started on how the west took advantage of us. I guess we can adopt the same here. Can't we? I'm a caste apologetic ?? hehe. Nice one NRI

Come to think of it, the most creative people are those who come from the slums. They would have seen and lived life better than any urban individual. I find it hilarious when some of these NGOs go to slums distributing text books. Have you tried giving them crayons and paper? I'll bet whatever I have that they'll blow your mind with their creativity.

Quote:Casteism is learned at home, and not at school. As per my knowledge, school never made it public about the caste of student. May be in college you get to know to which group the person belongs to. But still, I knew the caste of every student in my class. I knew that which caste does one Brahmin belongs to? Like deshath or kokanastha. This knowledge came from the society, may be from parents but not from school.

Blah blah blah.. I used the term school LEVEL -- not school itself -- an individual's formative years of development. I targeted the elders in general because they are the root cause of the knowledge getting passed on to younger generation. If you weren't so naive -- instead of knowing your classmates caste -- you'd have questioned who ever told you about it. Its really disgusting how we respect elders just for the heck of it. This has to change. The older generation should start facilitating the younger generation to do what they want instead of forcing them to do this and that.

I studied in a CBSE school, a state board and I know friends who studied in remote villages here and I know about the difference in standard of education. School is where kids from different backgrounds come together and it goes a long way in shaping citizens of a nation. Education should be standardized through-out our country. There should be no compromises made. And when I say standards its not just the syllabus(which itself should have sports, music and art) but the facilities, and the competency of teachers.

Quote: Which India are you refereeing to, the present one or the one from Ashoka? As in medieval period, the India was divided into many small kingdoms.

Did you grow up looking at dollar bills? Take a closer look at our currency or our national flag then you'd know that I was going on about the kingdom of Ashoka. The Maurya dynasty and the Mughal dynasty ruled most of modern India long enough to influence our heritage. British influenced our bureaucracy, education and language.

Whenever I watch a show on TV where there is a debate on social issues here.. it always ends in a stalemate. The main problems we are facing is over-diversity and population.. too many opinions, no fruitful conclusion ever!

BTW all this global community and globalization started out all nice, but more they talk about it, the more phony it sounds to me. Its recession that caused the economic power shift, and if you want to call that globalization -- its like selling a bug in a software as a special feature.

Speaking of our Politics

If you remember our ruling government after winning spent a few months bashing the opposition which was hilarious. I mean do you win elections to govern the country or make fun of your opposition. Our media had some fun too reporting that. Then the govt. decided it was enough and started the common man saga which fizzled out so they decided to stamp the common man with inflation. I consider Congress as Psychopaths and BJP as Retards which is why I'll never vote for them. In fact the middle class are getting trampled all around the world.
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#8
(19-Mar-2012, 01:53 AM)screech Wrote: That's a real pity. It goes to show the lack of patriotism in us. In fact while I was preparing for CET I went through the Trachtenberg speed system instead of vedic mathematics just assuming that it must be better than our own system since its more popular with books and all. Anyway I was pathetic at mathematics so it just didn't matter what I ended up reading. Lets be honest here -- we need to promote our culture better. Heritage is vital in forming a nation's identity. It will include ancient monuments, traditions, rituals etc. But then that's our history, you can't deny it. Our country is home to many religious traditions which one can practice freely -- that's what our secularism is all about. Then again it doesn't mean that we need to take the whole thing as is and promote it. We can weed out the negatives and improvise to get a more global appeal.

History is history, the social customs good or bad, both needs to be accepted and taught as part of culture. The talk of the culture and heritage about any country is majorly related to current inflence of the nation on the world. The west world, especially europe has great influence on the world and hence we talk more about there customs. Even USA has inherited almost everything from europe. China which is influencing to the world with its economics power, is not marketing the religion or culture, still world talk about its culture. Indeed world will know more about India than just yog and spiritualism.
Now let's consider, your comment about vedic mathematics. That you assumed the Trachtenberg speed system is better than vedic mathematics because it was western. But considering today when you have good resources, just because of the word vedic, somebody may assume that it is part of our heritage. But are we sure that the Vedic Mathematics is true part of our heritage? Wiki article for quick reference.

Quote:(This is one reason I'd like to see "UNIFORM" civil code adopted in the near future which would pave the way for a common identity. Identity could be say - our's is a free country or country of dreams oh wait that's been taken..um.. lets improvise shall we? how about country where dreams actually come true! SWEET!)

AFAIK, Uniform civil law will provide the same status for every person in terms of personal/inheritance law, but it is not the only source of identity. Outside India, I am Indian, but inside India, I am recognised by religion, caste, region, language etc. In fact, the name of a person itself relieves, what religion you follow, and to certain amount, what is your caste. It has nothing to do with law.
I fully agree with your Dream...it must be dream of eveyone... :-)

Quote:My sincere mistake. I'm not well versed with caste and jati. If you could provide a working link, I'd be pleased to go through the treatise. I found similarities between the varna and the class since both are hereditary structures. As evidence suggests in ancient India the varna system was not rigid as it later became. There were revolutions for equality in both cases. Where did I talk about the existence of one thing before the other or one getting derived from the other?

For me, caste and class or varna system in India is too complex to be covered in an article. I can refer, The History of India - by Romila Thapar as a start. Its a lenghty book anyways.
Like you are talking about the classes or varna, but do you know that untouchables are avarna, so low that they don't even considered to be part of class. The class argument fall apart here.

Quote:You're all over the place my friend. Probably you should try reading what's written in my post instead of wikipedia. I merely stated that Casteism came to the forefront. You're saying British employed untouchables to fight a war. But do you know if those soldiers enjoyed the same facilities as any other soldier? What was their wage? My enemy is your enemy so we're friends! The untouchables fought because they believed in something -- this doesn't make the Brits morally right. Get it?

Let's try to understand what you were trying to say.
Quote:So you say that casteism in India is thousands of years ago. But when did it actually begin to de-generate? During the British Raj, the Brits took help of the Brahmins to setup the bureaucracy by installing them in prestigious positions which brought casteism to the forefront. I don't know the status of casteism during the Mughal Era. I'm not a huge fan of transliterating old religious texts which use winding metophors and make sense out of them.
.

My point was, just don't put complete blame on British for our social problems. If you have this point, could you please refer to me where I could find that the caste system was not in forefront before british. AFAIK, brahmins hold prestigious positions throughout the history. Give some credit to british as they introduced education system to masses and stopped bad customs like sati.

Quote:Working link please. I don't believe that casteism has been overcome, but we are going in the wrong path is what I implied. Its time to move towards a common identity instead of highlighting the divisions and trying to compensate the subjugated by reminding them of the past. If you really believe that everyone are born equal then that's where you should start. Don't see them as someone different just make sure they integrate better within the society. If the so called upper caste is subjugating a lower caste. Try to view that from the moral window instead of viewing it through a caste window.

Sorry for the link which is not working. Its was working when I posted it though. :-D ... See this link
Buddy, it would have been better if you suggest any concrete steps to remove castes from the society... I am not getting your point of who's looking to whom from what kind of window...please elaborate if you have any points to eliminate the caste system...

Quote:Blah blah blah.. I used the term school LEVEL -- not school itself -- an individual's formative years of development. I targeted the elders in general because they are the root cause of the knowledge getting passed on to younger generation. If you weren't so naive -- instead of knowing your classmates caste -- you'd have questioned who ever told you about it. Its really disgusting how we respect elders just for the heck of it. This has to change. The older generation should start facilitating the younger generation to do what they want instead of forcing them to do this and that.

Quote:Casteism starts at the school level.
next time, please be more specific about the words. It would be more apt if you would have used, "childhood" or "early age" rather than school level.

[quote]
Did you grow up looking at dollar bills? Take a closer look at our currency or our national flag then you'd know that I was going on about the kingdom of Ashoka. The Maurya dynasty and the Mughal dynasty ruled most of modern India long enough to influence our heritage. British influenced our bureaucracy, education and language.
[quote]

Why you becoming personal buddy? I grow up with no money in my hands till my college. But I surely know from class 1, what is chakra in national flag or who was King Ashok. It doesn't occured to me to study Indian rupees for that info. BTW, for your knowledge, when Britain, Netherlands, Denmark, Portugal, France, Persia invaded Indian subcontinent, it was not a single India as we see it today. Certainly, maurya, mughal, british have great influence on modern India/Pak/Bangla/Nepal...

Anyways it seems to me that we are not discussing only Patiotism/Nationalism here. We can move this discussion on new thread (may be under social sciences), what say?
Indians today are governed by two different ideologies. Their political ideal set in the preamble of the Constitution affirms a life of liberty, equality and fraternity. Their social ideal embodied in their religion denies them. - Ambedkar
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#9
(20-Mar-2012, 02:53 PM)nispat Wrote: For me, caste and class or varna system in India is too complex to be covered in an article. I can refer, The History of India - by Romila Thapar as a start. Its a lenghty book anyways.
Like you are talking about the classes or varna, but do you know that untouchables are avarna, so low that they don't even considered to be part of class. The class argument fall apart here.

Here is a quick compilation of previously published articles on the class/varna system, to serve as a ready reckoner.

Origins

The Legacy Of Brahmanism: Abomination of Untouchability And Curse Of Caste System (April 24, 2010)
Thread on Manusmriti (July 12, 2011)

Evils

How Religions Flunk the Test of Power (February 27, 2010) (Refer to the documentary 'India Untouched' linked therein)

Towards eradication

Fissiparous Tendencies in Humans (March 14, 2012)
Standing with the Koragas of Dakshina Kannada (June 1, 2011)
Deepti weds Sandesh (An Inter-caste Wedding Story) (December 24, 2011)

Note to mods: Consider splitting into a new thread if that maybe found useful.
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#10
Quote:Now let's consider, your comment about vedic mathematics. That you assumed the Trachtenberg speed system is better than vedic mathematics because it was western. But considering today when you have good resources, just because of the word vedic, somebody may assume that it is part of our heritage. But are we sure that the Vedic Mathematics is true part of our heritage? Wiki article for quick reference.

Well, the link you posted doesn't deny that its a part of our heritage, its a debate on semantics. What ever you want to call it, its still a part of our heritage. Or do you deny that as well? Where did I say that I assumed that Trachtenberg speed system was better because it was WESTERN?(is Trachtenberg speed system considered as a western contribution?) I just said it was more readily available back then and was more popular. Why would I need any of those now? I obviously don't give a rat's arse if its Vedic or not, its mathematics and our contribution. Yes there is room for revision here, we could probably give it a name like Indian speed system or something like that.

Quote:AFAIK, Uniform civil law will provide the same status for every person in terms of personal/inheritance law, but it is not the only source of identity. Outside India, I am Indian, but inside India, I am recognised by religion, caste, region, language etc. In fact, the name of a person itself relieves, what religion you follow, and to certain amount, what is your caste. It has nothing to do with law. I fully agree with your Dream...it must be dream of eveyone... :-)

Put in simple terms -- It is a set of rules which a citizen should follow irrespective of caste, religion etc. I mean you did read civics right? is it just about inheritance? In fact when I brought it up previously I never thought of inheritance. That's the reason I think uniform civil code is necessary to achieve secularism. Our secularism is nothing but pseudo-secularism. When I said identity its the "secular" identity which you should be ready to die for!

If you can recollect there was a recent debate on TV(ah yes just before the elections what a surprise!). Should we adopt the traditional secularism. The discussion soon drifted to partition, how Gandhi wanted Indian secularism with Hindu majority and how Jinnah wanted to adopt the traditional secularism with Muslim majority. Jaswant Singh came out with that book: Dividing India to save it. Why can't these idiots think about the future why do they keep pointing at history. Did you watch that debate between Kapil Sibal and Arun Jaitley just before the elections? It went like this.. look what you did back then, and the counter was hey! ok! but look you did that! Both looked like baboons.

Quote:For me, caste and class or varna system in India is too complex to be covered in an article. I can refer, The History of India - by Romila Thapar as a start. Its a lenghty book anyways.
Like you are talking about the classes or varna, but do you know that untouchables are avarna, so low that they don't even considered to be part of class. The class argument fall apart here.

I'll go through it when I find time. I got really pissed off when I was tagged a caste apologist. I was born here and I've lived in different parts of India(including remote villages) and I've never asked anyone's caste, probably because I always found more interesting topics to discuss. But yes I admit that I've seen my elders talk about it, but then again I've never taken their advice. I've studied in a missionary school, an ashram and lived in a muslim locality so yes I've been exposed to different religions. Then again I haven't had serious religious debates with anyone, because I never found it interesting and never had the patience to lean all those rituals in fact my parents used to call me hell boy in local vernacular.

Quote:My point was, just don't put complete blame on British for our social problems. If you have this point, could you please refer to me where I could find that the caste system was not in forefront before british. AFAIK, brahmins hold prestigious positions throughout the history. Give some credit to british as they introduced education system to masses and stopped bad customs like sati.

I never denied that caste system was not in the forefront before the Brits. I'm just trying to emphasize that a social evil should be rooted out internally. What about Raja Ram Mohan Roy's efforts? I'm not putting complete blame on the Brits, in fact I'm blaming ourselves for letting someone else do it for us. Now I can go on about the evils the Brits have done, but someone will jump in and say its whataboutery -- lol what a word! is that what you say when you win a lottery?

I don't know what the -- so called -- prestigious position really means. As far as I'm concerned the profession you do is prestigious to you. Then comes the social status part, you're wage, your lifestyle and your right to choose the profession you like. Yes I agree when brahmins took control they influenced other professions as well. This reminds me of totalitarian regimes where a certain group have control over others, no artistic freedom, no free speech etc. so yes that's my question when did Brahmins take a totalitarian control? Throughout history? Why wasn't it stopped? Why didn't our ancestors revolt? Then again that's something for the historians to research.

I'm more concerned about the present and the future because professions have evolved and are so complex these days that we have managers in every department and you need people with diverse set of skills so it doesn't matter what caste, jati etc you belong to. The wage part is more decided on the severity levels. People are free to choose their lifestyle, like what they want to ride, the place they want to live, but i'm against apartments that are caste based -- there is an opportunity for better integration here.

Quote:it would have been better if you suggest any concrete steps to remove castes from the society... I am not getting your point of who's looking to whom from what kind of window...please elaborate if you have any points to eliminate the caste system...

I have been giving points in bits and pieces, but somehow they are getting lost so I'll make another post solely for this, but give me some time.

Quote:Quote:
Casteism starts at the school level.

next time, please be more specific about the words. It would be more apt if you would have used, "childhood" or "early age" rather than school level.

Why are you nitpicking? Maybe it didn't come out right. English is not a logical language after all. I did mention "grass root" before school level, my only idea was to emphasize on education and how kids from different backgrounds come together to learn setting aside their differences. If you've noticed right from the very start I've been using the terms "future/younger generation" and "integration" in different forms.

Quote:Why you becoming personal buddy? I grow up with no money in my hands till my college. But I surely know from class 1, what is chakra in national flag or who was King Ashok. It doesn't occured to me to study Indian rupees for that info. BTW, for your knowledge, when Britain, Netherlands, Denmark, Portugal, France, Persia invaded Indian subcontinent, it was not a single India as we see it today. Certainly, maurya, mughal, british have great influence on modern India/Pak/Bangla/Nepal...

Anyways it seems to me that we are not discussing only Patiotism/Nationalism here. We can move this discussion on new thread (may be under social sciences), what say?

I didn't like the way you said that you knew castes of all your school mates, trying to debunk what I was trying to convey. So you don't believe everyone are born equal?

We are talking about national integration here which at least is a realistic target, would it be foolish to achieve national integration first before going for globalization? Why don't we call it Globaloonization - lot of hot air nothing else.

I don't mind if the topic continues on the same thread.
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#11
(24-Mar-2012, 06:55 PM)screech Wrote: Well, the link you posted doesn't deny that its a part of our heritage, its a debate on semantics.

Here's another link - http://nirmukta.net/Thread-The-Fraud-of-Vedic-Maths

Bharati Krishna Tirthaji Maharaja is a fraud.

And Here's a post which is a must read for die harders for "equality".
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#12
(24-Mar-2012, 06:55 PM)screech Wrote: Put in simple terms -- It is a set of rules which a citizen should follow irrespective of caste, religion etc. I mean you did read civics right? is it just about inheritance? In fact when I brought it up previously I never thought of inheritance. That's the reason I think uniform civil code is necessary to achieve secularism. Our secularism is nothing but pseudo-secularism. When I said identity its the "secular" identity which you should be ready to die for!
Buddy, uniform civil code is broadly about property, marriage, divorce and adoption. For me, secularism simply means, the seperation of government and religion. It is not true that state and religion are truly divided. Usually, the civil laws are near to religion. Ex. suicide as a criminal offence in India (not sure abt the current status of this law but it is still under IPC 309 ), has its root in British bibilical view on this topic.
Do you think that state should interfere in religion for its marraige pact, or distribution of wealth amoung themselves? Which side the state must take when there is conflict? Like, polygamy for muslims and not for hindu? I haven't made my mind to how the secularism in India should be. Because for that I need more study on anthropological view of Indian society. Sadly, I haven't found enough time for this as far now. :-(. It is difficult for me to take any stand just because I feel it right.
The western world, civil laws were easy to made when majority of society was christian. The Indian context, however is much complex, because the variation of tradition and custom amount the major religion Hindu, and not so minor muslims.
In broad term, the identity of all of us is Indian and nothing else. But in the inner circles of our society we are exposed with seperation of religion, caste....Here I am failing to understand how uniform civil code will give us the secular identity...May be you can tell how exactly, uniform civil law will provide us the identity....

BTW, civics is the study of the theoretical and practical aspects of citizenship, its rights and duties; the duties of citizens to each other as members of a political body and to the government. AFAIR, they never taught us ( at in Maharashtra board for my batch 87-97) about the laws of property, marriage, divorce and adoption. It was more about the duties and political and administrative structure of India. These duties and rights are same for all Indians irrespective of religion, caste etc....
Indians today are governed by two different ideologies. Their political ideal set in the preamble of the Constitution affirms a life of liberty, equality and fraternity. Their social ideal embodied in their religion denies them. - Ambedkar
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