[split] National Pride and Caste
#13
(24-Mar-2012, 06:55 PM)screech Wrote: I never denied that caste system was not in the forefront before the Brits. I'm just trying to emphasize that a social evil should be rooted out internally. What about Raja Ram Mohan Roy's efforts? I'm not putting complete blame on the Brits, in fact I'm blaming ourselves for letting someone else do it for us. Now I can go on about the evils the Brits have done, but someone will jump in and say its whataboutery -- lol what a word! is that what you say when you win a lottery?

I don't know what the -- so called -- prestigious position really means. As far as I'm concerned the profession you do is prestigious to you. Then comes the social status part, you're wage, your lifestyle and your right to choose the profession you like. Yes I agree when brahmins took control they influenced other professions as well. This reminds me of totalitarian regimes where a certain group have control over others, no artistic freedom, no free speech etc. so yes that's my question when did Brahmins take a totalitarian control? Throughout history? Why wasn't it stopped? Why didn't our ancestors revolt? Then again that's something for the historians to research.

I'm more concerned about the present and the future because professions have evolved and are so complex these days that we have managers in every department and you need people with diverse set of skills so it doesn't matter what caste, jati etc you belong to. The wage part is more decided on the severity levels. People are free to choose their lifestyle, like what they want to ride, the place they want to live, but i'm against apartments that are
caste based -- there is an opportunity for better integration here.

No way am I saying that British were the best thing happened to India. And I have great respect for our social reformist like, RM Roy, Savitri Phule and her Hubsband(started first girls school in India), Karve ( pioneer of sex education in India) and the list is countless…But I was objecting to the sentence where you were referring Brits cause the caste problem to forefront.

By prestigious positions I mean the position in the society or administration which has been traditionally seen with respect, like minister, judge etc.. by the society. “The profession you do is prestigious to you” is true when you have the right to do any profession you like.

About the Brahmin and totalitarian rule in historical India, I am not sure that Brahmins ruled India per se; they have most of the time, seen as the most prominent figure in the administration and government. The society which was created on Brahminical view put them above king without accountability. May not be bad, at those times, but later on emphasis is given on rigidity. The revolt against such system was driven by mostly Buddha, Mahavira and charavaka. I don’t know how charavaka movement died, but the Buddhist movement was strong for centuries. The death of buddism caused a great apartheid to the low caste people. Jainism on the other hand aligned to Hinduism for survival.

Discussing the history on this topic will give us a thought of what and how things need to be corrected. Consider today’s India,
The main occupation of India (in 2010) is agriculture. About 52% people are doing agriculture or related activity. The untouchables were not allowed to possess lands under there name, and tribal are kicked out of there lands, they are underprivileged and unemployed. Now tell me, how can we say that people have “free choice” to do the job what they want to. As such, the discrimination is equally true in private sector. I am not opposing your intentions to burn caste out of Indian society, or not even thinking that you are caste or class apologetic. I am only saying that the things are not that simple as they look. Like stores department is generally not given to dalit, etc…The educated dalits are employing different tricks like, not telling the actual caste, or changing the surname etc to move upward in private companies. Before going forward we must understand, why the things are like the way they are. It will give us most exhaustive overview of this vast topic.

(Apologies, as I divided the post, bcz of the shroller is not working on my machine)

Indians today are governed by two different ideologies. Their political ideal set in the preamble of the Constitution affirms a life of liberty, equality and fraternity. Their social ideal embodied in their religion denies them. - Ambedkar
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#14
Quote:Here's another link - http://nirmukta.net/Thread-The-Fraud-of-Vedic-Maths

Bharati Krishna Tirthaji Maharaja is a fraud.

And Here's a post which is a must read for die harders for "equality".

Gulp! Note to myself. Rely more on your intuition! My parents were the one's who suggested vedic mathematics, but then I don't blame them because they were so desperate at the time for me to get a good score. I felt repulsed by mathematics, but that's more to do with the kind of teachers I had in primary school. They used to give a lot of assignments which was all about repetition. I've come to a conclusion that our primary education system gives more emphasis on memorization and pattern recognition instead of developing cognitive skills.

I was never interested in academics; I was more into sports and arts; I loved theater and martial arts as a kid. I still like acting in skits and I'm still pursuing my martial arts dreams.

As I mentioned earlier, arts and sports should be a part of the curriculum. What if someone has a dream to be a musician, a dancer or an athlete, why the heck should the student be fed with extra unrelated worthless information? I'm drifting away from the main topic here so let me save this for another thread.
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#15
Quote:Buddy, uniform civil code is broadly about property, marriage, divorce and adoption. For me, secularism simply means, the seperation of government and religion. It is not true that state and religion are truly divided. Usually, the civil laws are near to religion. Ex. suicide as a criminal offence in India (not sure abt the current status of this law but it is still under IPC 309 ), has its root in British bibilical view on this topic.

Do you think that state should interfere in religion for its marraige pact, or distribution of wealth amoung themselves? Which side the state must take when there is conflict? Like, polygamy for muslims and not for hindu? I haven't made my mind to how the secularism in India should be. Because for that I need more study on anthropological view of Indian society. Sadly, I haven't found enough time for this as far now. :-(. It is difficult for me to take any stand just because I feel it right.
The western world, civil laws were easy to made when majority of society was christian. The Indian context, however is much complex, because the variation of tradition and custom amount the major religion Hindu, and not so minor muslims.

Indian Secularism is closer to religion, and doesn't offer that common identity. The state doesn't need to intervene, but laws can be codified in ways where the religious identity may be treated as an exception. You can have a common set of laws for citizens of our country which is at the top of the hierarchy, pulling the religious identity down. I don't think we need an anthropological view, what we need is common consensus of the present generation. We can encourage citizens to become secular by offering incentives. This is just my idea, I know there is lot of complexity involved, but its worth a shot.

Quote:In broad term, the identity of all of us is Indian and nothing else. But in the inner circles of our society we are exposed with seperation of religion, caste....Here I am failing to understand how uniform civil code will give us the secular identity...May be you can tell how exactly, uniform civil law will provide us the identity....

"Indian" is a geographical identity. There should be something more to it, something that makes you proud to be an Indian.

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#16
Quote:No way am I saying that British were the best thing happened to India. And I have great respect for our social reformist like, RM Roy, Savitri Phule and her Hubsband(started first girls school in India), Karve ( pioneer of sex education in India) and the list is countless…But I was objecting to the sentence where you were referring Brits cause the caste problem to forefront.

By prestigious positions I mean the position in the society or administration which has been traditionally seen with respect, like minister, judge etc.. by the society. “The profession you do is prestigious to you” is true when you have the right to do any profession you like.

Brits employed Brahmins in those prestigious positions. They weren't trying to abolish the varna and jati system. They were trying to simplify it and get it closer to their own class system.


Quote:Discussing the history on this topic will give us a thought of what and how things need to be corrected. Consider today’s India,
The main occupation of India (in 2010) is agriculture. About 52% people are doing agriculture or related activity. The untouchables were not allowed to possess lands under there name, and tribal are kicked out of there lands, they are underprivileged and unemployed. Now tell me, how can we say that people have “free choice” to do the job what they want to. As such, the discrimination is equally true in private sector. I am not opposing your intentions to burn caste out of Indian society, or not even thinking that you are caste or class apologetic. I am only saying that the things are not that simple as they look. Like stores department is generally not given to dalit, etc…The educated dalits are employing different tricks like, not telling the actual caste, or changing the surname etc to move upward in private companies. Before going forward we must understand, why the things are like the way they are. It will give us most exhaustive overview of this vast topic.


I never said that things are simple. If you take it as something very complex then you'll never find a solution. You need to think at a macro level to set an objective before diving down into the details. How do you route out discrimination is not the question. The question should be, how do you attain equality. What's the difference? One is regressive, and the other is progressive.

We first started with reservations in education and now we think that's not changing anything so we move on to professional reservations - that doesn't solve the problem. So what next? we increase the reservation percentage. What will the outcome be?

My solution would be to improve the quality of education first. And make sure each and every kid irrespective of their background/location is given the same facility. I believe that every kid has a unique talent. So when I mean facility it should include a wide range of options/activities for kids to engage in. We may have a budding historian, anthropologist, musician, athlete, scientist, painter, engineer, politician etc in the group. When you're a kid you have no knowledge about caste, discrimination etc unless that is forced on to you. You're investing in the future of your nation. So next comes empowerment. Once they've got what they want they should be allowed to pursue it and get the necessary backing.

This is the general outlook, we will face different challenges for example school drop outs which could be for different reasons like not able to afford the fees, parents forcing kids into child labor etc. We could set up child rescue groups(CRY India for example).

I'd like to take the discussion down this path, but unfortunately nobody seems to care.

One more thing, regressive thinking is one of the effects of colonial subjugation in fact any kind of subjugation. Now if I want to keep you in that mode, I'd hail your regressive thinking and its outcomes by giving it international attention and sell it as something to be proud of. Like in the story "The Emperor's New Clothes".


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#17
(06-Apr-2012, 06:08 AM)screech Wrote: I'd like to take the discussion down this path, but unfortunately nobody seems to care.

Has it ever occurred to you that it might be you and not others? So let's go down that path. How do you propose implementing your solution? You can't just post a hypothetical and then say "reservations aren't needed". You put in a replacement system in first (or at least a realistically feasible system) and then, and only then do you talk about removing reservations.

So let's hear numbers from you. How many representives of people are going to accept your proposal, how are you going to frame a bill, and how much budget? How does your solution fare, resource utilization wise, when compared to the current system? You do realize that reservations are based on real world data and not on inky-pinky-ponky?

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#18
(06-Apr-2012, 06:08 AM)screech Wrote: I'd like to take the discussion down this path, but unfortunately nobody seems to care.

If I understand the proposal correctly, then it has a fundamental flaw in it. It addresses the equalization of opportunities and resources. But that is not sufficient. Caste discrimination, happening over ages, has rendered the balance in favor of certain community. So there needs to be some kind of compensation for it. In concrete terms, lets take one example of learning ability. Because some castes were never allowed to educate themselves, their learning abilities are slower than the other so-called-upper-castes. Now there has to be some affirmative action that allows the discriminated caste to same entitlements as the so-called-upper-castes, although they achieve lower results (this is because the scale was balanced against them to begin with). And this is where reservation comes in.
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#19
(06-Apr-2012, 02:47 AM)screech Wrote: Indian Secularism is closer to religion, and doesn't offer that common identity. The state doesn't need to intervene, but laws can be codified in ways where the religious identity may be treated as an exception. You can have a common set of laws for citizens of our country which is at the top of the hierarchy, pulling the religious identity down. I don't think we need an anthropological view, what we need is common consensus of the present generation. We can encourage citizens to become secular by offering incentives. This is just my idea, I know there is lot of complexity involved, but its worth a shot.

I am not getting what you are trying to say here. The Indian laws are common for every individual except, laws of marriage, property, marriage, divorce and adoption. These laws are treated as an exception. Basically the difference in laws are more personal level. The normal marriage act ( without religion and caste ) exist in India which is called "Special Marriage Act 1954" and a general rules of law ( without religion and caste) applied here. As per constitution you are free to marry under this act. In my opinion this is not the perfect law, but that is not the point of discussion here. In the end, it is the individuals who decides whether religion should play part in personal matters.
Actually to change something, you need to understand it first. Just take an example of polygamy.
Polygamy is not good, prohibited by law and etc etc
But are there any points where we can justify polygamy like,
- What if the wife is bedridden and no hope of recovery
- What if the wife can't concieve a child?
- Other point i can't think off Biggrin
I am not justifing the polygamy ( I hope my wife isn't reading all this Wink ), but while making laws you have to be very sure.
That is why I wanted to study the Indian society, its unsaid laws etc before making my mind to support way of secularism in India.

I think when people becomes rational, the religion by itself loses it grip. The big question, is this situation possible? We can discuss how to drive people towards rational thinking. and if possible how long will it take ( all in Indian context)
Indians today are governed by two different ideologies. Their political ideal set in the preamble of the Constitution affirms a life of liberty, equality and fraternity. Their social ideal embodied in their religion denies them. - Ambedkar
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#20
Quote:Has it ever occurred to you that it might be you and not others? So let's go down that path. How do you propose implementing your solution? You can't just post a hypothetical and then say "reservations aren't needed". You put in a replacement system in first (or at least a realistically feasible system) and then, and only then do you talk about removing reservations.

So let's hear numbers from you. How many representives of people are going to accept your proposal, how are you going to frame a bill, and how much budget? How does your solution fare, resource utilization wise, when compared to the current system? You do realize that reservations are based on real world data and not on inky-pinky-ponky?

It didn't, because I'm on a different plane and have grown out of this hypocritical reservation thing.
Num..bores me out. All I can give is an overview--for all the details--you could go through the CRY India website. I'm not here proposing something new, its already there in the open and people are striving --the needs of RTE to be met for example. Budget is never a concern if we the People of India force the Politicians get all the tax payers money back from Swiss Bank and use it develop our country instead of using it for buying votes, shutting up the media, bribe the anti-corruption forces etc.

Children of the lower classes are not born with any kind of disabilities that somehow stops them from learning(I'm not talking about children who are born with actual disabilities.) Its the social environment that they grow up in that denies them the opportunities. Its their illiterate parents that spoil their future. And that's how it continues.. their children's children are made to follow the same thing and they end up evolving in a finite environment with limited opportunities. If things go right for these kids at some point in their childhood you never what they'd end up achieving. Some of the most famous Indians who come from downtrodden localities.. to name a few of the top of my head.. Dhanraj Pillay, IM Vijayan, Bachendri Pal, PT Usha, Tenzing Norgay, Dr. Salim Ali, Dhirubhai Ambani, Sabu(India's first Hollywood Actor), Eknath Solkar, Vinod Kambli, K R Narayanan, Ambedkar. So you think all these famous people are flash in the pan?

Now I don't want get into a statistical war about how many famous Indians are from affluent or well to do families. If the numbers are huge then it doesn't mean that they are innately superior. In fact I can point out things where tribes and slum kids have an edge over the urban kids, when it comes to kinesthetic tasks. They live free, run around, jump up and down, unlike urban kids who are brought up in cramped up cities, no time for flexing their muscles, eat a lot of junk food etc. No wonder we have more tribal youth passing the tasks to qualify for Indian Defense. Its as though the Indian Defense goes in search of them. A recent stat has revealed that Indian Defense force is the 9th largest employer in the world.

Just revise the education system by taking a holistic approach and you'll see the difference and who will end up needing those reservations. India and IT? just go through this shocking revelation: http://www.rediff.com/getahead/slide-sho...120229.htm Most of the IT centers in India are cost centers and not profit centers--the management's main aim is to get the job done for a low cost, and we call our country an IT hub. LOL! Where is the innovation and creativity in our students?

The father of multiple intelligence -- Howard Gardner -- was in India recently who gave talks on education. Read more here: http://www.xseed.in/xseed-presents-howar...-2012.html
An NGO has multiple intelligence as its corner stone to help spastic children. Its promoted by the current World Chess Champion, Vishy Anand: http://www.vidyasagar.co.in/mind.html
I got to meet the champ recently in Bangalore, he had come to promote his NGO. I got to play in a simul exhibition against him, and was the first to lose. It was embarrassing to say the least, but I came with a verbal-counter after the game, "We'll see next time" after which Vishy hasn't gotten back to me for a game hehe. Here is an interesting article:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sport...368514.cms



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#21
Good. That's a start. Now how do you propose to address the issue raised by Kanad? Equalizing on a social level? Examples are:

1. Make sure things like this don't happen. They happen more frequently for reasons conveniently ignored by the anti-reservation crusaders. Such incidents happen because the administration is complicit in such acts because there is not enough representation of oppressed people. This despite decades of having reservations. Speaks volumes about the pervasive discrimination, doesn't it?
2. Prevent harassment of people availing reservations in colleges and offices.
3. Make sure that when searching for housing, people aren't turned away because of their caste.

Of course, I don't come from a discriminated background and those the examples I could remember on top of my head. Somebody from a discriminated background would have more to add.
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#22
Quote: Good. That's a start.

You mean this..

http://education.oneindia.in/news/2012/0...sibal.html

Quote:1. Make sure things like this don't happen. They happen more frequently for reasons conveniently ignored by the anti-reservation crusaders. Such incidents happen because the administration is complicit in such acts because there is not enough representation of oppressed people. This despite decades of having reservations. Speaks volumes about the pervasive discrimination, doesn't it?
2. Prevent harassment of people availing reservations in colleges and offices.
3. Make sure that when searching for housing, people aren't turned away because of their caste.

Of course, I don't come from a discriminated background and those the examples I could remember on top of my head. Somebody from a discriminated background would have more to add.

I don't know what kind of anti-reservation crusaders you're talking about. The atrocities in Kandhamal highlight the fact that Law has failed miserably in the region. I consider the attacks religion based and not caste based. The article you mention is similar to the anti-christian attacks in Karnataka. What I'd like to know is, if dalits voluntarily take up Christianity or are they forced into it. I believe this news made international headlines.. I remember seeing it on CNN, the same news channel which portrayed the Portugese conquest of Goa as some kind of globalization. There was a talk show on NDTV on both the issues.. Religious proselytization and attack on Churches. I'm not able to find the link to the video.

I have many friends who have converted to Christianity. I myself studied in a convent, hence mingle with them well. Many of them believe that they lead better lives after getting converted. I once asked a guy who owns a small shop, about his conversion. He said that when he was a Hindu he lived on the streets like a dog and after conversion he leads a much better life. Its no surprise that Christian Missionaries are very organized, well-funded, very good at charity and promoting their religion. I believe that you don't have to sell religion to help people.

Is religious or caste identity so important to us? We don't have a unifying national identity. An identity which we Indians would feel proud of. Unity in diversity? What actually unites us?

Caste-based reservations haven't worked for many decades now, its getting abused by our politicians. If a proposed solution hasn't worked then you should try a different one instead of rehashing the same thing. If you're worried that the community is under-represented then have a qualified non-partisan representative in the region. If the person is not getting the job done, then he or she is not qualified to be in that position. (We have human rights group monitoring the progress) If you're able to find a qualified representative within the community then well and good, if not then there should be someone who would empower the community so that they can join the mainstream.

Community empowerment doesn't mean empowering their identity. That's the bane of having caste based reservations, it doesn't promote equality, and dilutes the standards of qualification. The so called upper class of our country is only fit for kissing colonial butts. I find people from down trodden communities more hard-working, creative, risk takers, patriotic and talented. To attain equality at a social level you need to create opportunities for them.

Do you ever read articles like these?
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/186-pa...nce-201755

Oh wait.. they didn't show this on CNN or BBC.. hehe

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#23
screech,

You didn't actually address any of my points other than to justify why such things happen. So people converted to another religion, so it makes it okay to persecute them? Even when the article is specific to the point of saying that dalits and adivasis are being discriminated against for being what they are. Would the Hindutva thugs dare do what they do if there was adequate representation of people in administration who could check bigotry?

In all the decades of independent India, evidence points to administrators favoring their own communities (mind you these are all people of "merit"). Now just because you need excuses to oppose reservations, the administration will magically produce people who will look beyond their communities? Yeah, let's just ignore how India is and write b/t/k/ollywood-esque screenplays of how India should be. I'm sure Shanker can make a blockbuster out of it.

Nobody is saying reservations are the perfect solution. But right now they are the only solution. Any talk of alternative solutions should start from the reality and not fantasies. And attitudes like caste reservations reinforce identity barriers don't really help. First came the discrimination, then reservations. You fix the thing that comes first and then talk about the latter.

Regarding your statement on down trodden people being hard-working, patriotic blah blah.., shows how clueless you are in understanding such issues. That India has a single identity has been a myth from the beginning. Ambedkar cared more about dalit empowerment than independence for "India". There's a civil war going on today in India which is fueled by people who you call "patriotic". So go figure.
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#24
To addition on Lije's comments,

(24-Apr-2012, 11:32 PM)screech Wrote: Is religious or caste identity so important to us? We don't have a unifying national identity. An identity which we Indians would feel proud of. Unity in diversity? What actually unites us?

No, it is not important theoretically, but religious and caste identities do exist in today's India and it is not a simple fact to downplay. National identity can't replace diversity (culture, religion, caste etc) of masses. To hold diverse population as a one nation under one identity have been backfired many times in the past and was one of the biggest reason for genocide, examples (USSR and Pakisthan). You have to maintain diversity to hold all of us together. That is why India didn't break out after independence against western world belief (Churchill and others). We can discuss how federal structure of India should be, but it’s not the topic here. And really diversity is what actually unites us.

(24-Apr-2012, 11:32 PM)screech Wrote: Caste-based reservations haven't worked for many decades now, its getting abused by our politicians.

Reservations are for uplift of lower castes. It was never meant for eliminating the caste. Caste is so rigid that even in Islam and Christians of India, Bangla and Pak has castes. However, these reservation hasn't worked is not true. It worked, and maybe not as smoothly as one expect, but certainly it over a period of time it has become a tool for lower castes.
- It gave them a platform to unite and agitate and know about rights. (Political reservations)
- It gave them a way to educate themselves. (Educational reservations)
- It gave them a belief in constitution. (Constitutional arrangements on reservation)
- It gave them a belief in law and parliament. (Stand of politicians on reservation)
- It helped in general people of India to avoid the communal clashes. (Between dalit and others)
- Because of the above reasons, dalit don't needed to breakout from India as "dalisthan".

I am not convinced with National Identity proud Indian concept. For me, the mobility and inter-caste marriage are the only solution to get away with the caste. And these are very long term solution. Globalisation has positive effects on mobility. Co-education has great impact on intercaste marriages. Let this be continue.... smile
Indians today are governed by two different ideologies. Their political ideal set in the preamble of the Constitution affirms a life of liberty, equality and fraternity. Their social ideal embodied in their religion denies them. - Ambedkar
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